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Vladimir,

My access to this is through the so-called 'Black and brown books' (of which I have a copy) - collected by his students after his death.

I am not sure which are the most accessible definitive texts, but maybe other might help, here?

Roger

On 17 Jan 2011, at 12:34, Vladimir wrote:

Roger and Mike,
I understood what Roger meant by "languge games". My point was that Roger was playing a game of this kind. Tonight I will get familiar with Wittgenstein's work on this subject and share my impression.
P.s.: I'm not lazy to post only when I'm angry. But because of being able easily to solve a problem I may seem humorous:-)
Vladimir

17.01.2011 15:00 пользователь "Roger Harnden" <[log in to unmask]> написал:
> You might well be right, Vladimir!
>
>
> The house photos are me messing about with the forum that all you guys
> seem to be sharing (including my two sons, who refuse to have me as a
> 'friend' on their sites! The photos are also for a couple of people
> who have visited me (in my old house`), and might be interested in my
> 'new' one. I'm trying to be very personal on my Facebook, Vladimir, in
> order to get a grasp of what other individuals find compelling.
>
> I am sorry, but I still have difficulties with understanding your
> intended meaning. and when you are being humorous and when sarcastic.
> Someone once said, that the one of the most difficult thing between
> different languages is the subtleties of humour. In UK we particularly
> notice this between ourselves and US citizens. There is a noticeable
> c;lash in both culture's understanding of humor.
>
> What I would value, though, is you insight into Wittgenstein's later
> work, and how that relates to the topics that have proved sometimes of
> interest on this forum.
>
>
> Roger
>
>
>
> On 16 Jan 2011, at 18:34, Vladimir wrote:
>
>> Dear Roger,
>> In the meaning you attached to "Language games" I see your
>> diagnosis. You simply are far from problematic reality. Because of
>> this, I think, too much efforts are needed to share our concepts and
>> reach understanding.
>> May be it will help you if you delete your facebook account with
>> fotos of your (i hope) beautyful new house. Don't participate in
>> cancerous social activity made possible by facebook.
>> Vladimir
>>
>> 15.01.2011 14:40 пользователь "Roger Harnden"
>> <[log in to unmask]> написал:
>> > Well, I'll try to address your question, Vladimir. I only write in
>> the
>> > way I am writing because we have met and I am assuming you will be
>> > able to follow this (if only to disagree with me on some of my
>> > interpretations of 'facts').
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > As you are aware, the tradition we are talking about was in part
>> > reacting against a 'representational' insight about
>> knowledge.....the
>> > view that that knowledge is to be understood as the capacity of the
>> > human mind to build representations of the 'world outside', and the
>> > relative 'accuracy' of these pictures tell us something about things
>> > such as intelligence.
>> >
>> > A quite different tradition was being influenced by structuralism
>> and
>> > by developmental psychology. These twentieth century developments
>> came
>> > to the insight that certain invariances in the order of things
>> > (whether 'inside' or 'outside') were of more significance to human
>> > understanding than any capacity to represent the apparently enormous
>> > variety we experience in our living. This changes insight into such
>> > things as intelligence into what we might today term a more
>> > 'ecological' insight of - as it were - 'riding the wave' of these
>> > invariances, rather than more or less accurately representing
>> > something called 'reality'. This was to lead to Maturana' and
>> Varela's
>> > notion of 'natural drift' and von Glasersfeld 'fit', and the various
>> > studies in 'self-organisation', central of which was von Foerster's
>> > work. It also leads to a strong refutation of certain implications
>> of
>> > Darwin's 'natural selection' as instancing the benefits of
>> strategems
>> > of competetiveness., This alternative paradigm, was building a world
>> > picture of a cooperative rather than a competetive landscape - both
>> > for the natural world (evolution theory) and the socio/political
>> > economy.
>> >
>> > In neurophysiology, in part inspired by the work of McCulloch, and
>> > leading to the connectionist model of computing that we now take
>> > forgranted, it was discovered that this same principle of
>> invariances
>> > might begin to point to very powerful ways of investigating neural
>> > dynamics, in a way that might give rise to the apparent variety of
>> > human experience. This development, absolutely echoed with that in
>> > anthropology (Levi Straus, , Benedict, Mead and Bateson) and
>> > linguistics (Saussure). What Piaget's work on the development of
>> young
>> > children demonstrated, was that differences and commonalities can
>> co-
>> > exist through a balance of assimilation and accommodation, in which
>> > human (and other) experience is always a balance between
>> assimilation
>> > into existing structures and models, and incorporation of external
>> > perturbations to these (accommodation). This was of course to lead
>> > directly into so-called constructivist insights, of which second
>> order
>> > cybernetics is part of (as is the biology of cognition), which have
>> > their fundaments in the insight that it is the interaction of
>> > 'insight' and 'outside' out of which is generated meaning and
>> > knowledge (this tradition was shared by Thomas Kuhn when he analysed
>> > scientific development as the pattern of normal and routine
>> scientific
>> > practice, and the eruption of breakthroughs (or 'revolutions' as he
>> > called them - such as the shift from Newtonian mechanics to
>> > Einsteinian relativity). The implication of Kuhn's work being that
>> > progress in science was far different from a rational accretion as
>> it
>> > had been taken to be, but was (like human mind) a mix of the
>> > irrational/emotional AND the logical/rational.
>> >
>> > All the above were taken a stage further by our 'founding
>> fathers' (I
>> > mean cyb., biology of cognition, second order cyb. etc) when they
>> > considered linguistic interactions, some implicitly (Maturana and
>> von
>> > Foerster) others explicitly (Pask). The shift was come to be
>> > understood as away from a dualistic and cerebral understanding of
>> mind
>> > (celebrated throughout so-called Anglo/US analytical philosophy),
>> > closely associated with the worship of reason (rationality); to an
>> > enactive (Varela) or embodied (Maturana) insight into mind (see, for
>> > instance, Maturana's 'The mind is not in the head'; or Varela et al
>> > 'The Embodied Mind'). Gordon saw himself as part of this groundshift
>> > in human understanding. As you possibly know, as a boy 'genius' he
>> > worked on code breaking at Bletchley with Turing, but his heart was
>> > 'performance' - theatre as meaning and communication (I mean this
>> > literally - he was close to Joan Sutherland, and remained on the
>> > fringes of the theatre all his life). What fascinated Gordon (in his
>> > earlier work - conversation theory) was how human interaction
>> managed
>> > to be so coherent (whether on the theatre stage, or for building
>> > rockets to go to the moon), when human language was so manifestly
>> not
>> > up to the job. Conversation Theory can be understood as continuing
>> the
>> > tradition of Goedel, Hilbert and others, in pushing issues to do
>> with
>> > logical completeness to their limits (incompleteness). Building on
>> > this work CT demonstrated WHY human language as it had evolved, had
>> > evolved for the wrong reasons or in the wrong direction.
>> >
>> > As far as I am concerned, CT demonstrates why reason is not seminal
>> > for human living, and also demonstrates why human beings ARE NOT
>> > computers, and are not (nor should be ) logical processors.
>> >
>> > The reason why Maturana forever stresses that language must be
>> > understood as connotative rather than denotative, is that given
>> these
>> > more constructivism developments (above) meaning and understanding
>> > have to be explained without reference to some neutral reality. CT
>> > describes in detail what might constitute a 'real' (ie logical)
>> > conversation - as an exchange of meanings between autonomous
>> > languaging beings. And, in taking this to its conclusions, the
>> theory
>> > takes such interactions away from human beings to entities of any
>> sort
>> > (cities, robots, nations) that might be considered to be
>> conversing at
>> > their own level of existence. This IS NOT the that actual human
>> > linguistic interactions take place.
>> >
>> > As a side point, but important one, all the above is in a way
>> > legitimised by the later work of Wittgenstein, when he too rejected
>> > the analytical tradition (and Russell). He realised (at more-or-less
>> > the same historical moment as these other individuals - above), that
>> > the critical factor of actual human linguistic interactions is
>> perhaps
>> > best described as being equivalent to the playing of games. And that
>> > meaning and understanding are not the end-point of a logical
>> > unfolding, but are in the effective or not 'playing' of a particular
>> > 'game' (for instance - building rockets). That rules of the game are
>> > affirmed and either agreed or not, and then a given game may be
>> > played, but that this playing of a game (together with its
>> > consequences - whether building a battleship or writing a novel) is
>> > the critical thing rather than any so-called 'higher' functions
>> (such
>> > as intelligence as in IQ).
>> >
>> > And, as far as I am concerned, Gordon in moving to his later work on
>> > Interaction of Actors Theory, was acknowledging that he had drawn a
>> > line under CT (that he had 'been there and done that' as we say in
>> > English), and was considering real-world interactions in line with
>> the
>> > implications of cybernetics, second order cybernetics, biology of
>> > cognition, enactivism and constructivism), and considering that it
>> is
>> > out of or emerged from the recurrent interactions of individuals in
>> > their social living, that things such as 'meaning' and 'knowledge'
>> > emerge. This is in stark contrast to the so-called 'great men'
>> thesis
>> > of history, which suggests that individual 'genius' is the central
>> > fact. This new paradigm may be summarised by the greatly democratic
>> > anecdote of Ross Ashby when he stated that "everybody is world
>> > champion at some game - even if it has not yet been invented".
>> >
>> > IAT attempts to synthesise the implications of CT for 'completion'
>> and
>> > agreement, in the actual 'messy' world of human interactions. It is
>> > this 'messy' world which was the focus of andragology (see for
>> > instance, Gerard de Zeuuw), especially as it plays out in the social
>> > domain.
>> >
>> > Hope that helps,
>> >
>> > Roger
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>> >
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>> >
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>> >
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>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~