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Vladimir,

My access to this is through the so-called 'Black and brown books' (of  
which I have a copy) - collected by his students after his death.

I am not sure which are the most accessible definitive texts, but  
maybe other might help, here?

Roger

On 17 Jan 2011, at 12:34, Vladimir wrote:

> Roger and Mike,
> I understood what Roger meant by "languge games". My point was that  
> Roger was playing a game of this kind. Tonight I will get familiar  
> with Wittgenstein's work on this subject and share my impression.
> P.s.: I'm not lazy to post only when I'm angry. But because of being  
> able easily to solve a problem I may seem humorous:-)
> Vladimir
>
> 17.01.2011 15:00 пользователь "Roger Harnden"  
> <[log in to unmask]> написал:
> > You might well be right, Vladimir!
> >
> >
> > The house photos are me messing about with the forum that all you  
> guys
> > seem to be sharing (including my two sons, who refuse to have me  
> as a
> > 'friend' on their sites! The photos are also for a couple of people
> > who have visited me (in my old house`), and might be interested in  
> my
> > 'new' one. I'm trying to be very personal on my Facebook,  
> Vladimir, in
> > order to get a grasp of what other individuals find compelling.
> >
> > I am sorry, but I still have difficulties with understanding your
> > intended meaning. and when you are being humorous and when  
> sarcastic.
> > Someone once said, that the one of the most difficult thing between
> > different languages is the subtleties of humour. In UK we  
> particularly
> > notice this between ourselves and US citizens. There is a noticeable
> > c;lash in both culture's understanding of humor.
> >
> > What I would value, though, is you insight into Wittgenstein's later
> > work, and how that relates to the topics that have proved  
> sometimes of
> > interest on this forum.
> >
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> > On 16 Jan 2011, at 18:34, Vladimir wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Roger,
> >> In the meaning you attached to "Language games" I see your
> >> diagnosis. You simply are far from problematic reality. Because of
> >> this, I think, too much efforts are needed to share our concepts  
> and
> >> reach understanding.
> >> May be it will help you if you delete your facebook account with
> >> fotos of your (i hope) beautyful new house. Don't participate in
> >> cancerous social activity made possible by facebook.
> >> Vladimir
> >>
> >> 15.01.2011 14:40 пользователь "Roger Harnden"
> >> <[log in to unmask]> написал:
> >> > Well, I'll try to address your question, Vladimir. I only write  
> in
> >> the
> >> > way I am writing because we have met and I am assuming you will  
> be
> >> > able to follow this (if only to disagree with me on some of my
> >> > interpretations of 'facts').
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > As you are aware, the tradition we are talking about was in part
> >> > reacting against a 'representational' insight about
> >> knowledge.....the
> >> > view that that knowledge is to be understood as the capacity of  
> the
> >> > human mind to build representations of the 'world outside', and  
> the
> >> > relative 'accuracy' of these pictures tell us something about  
> things
> >> > such as intelligence.
> >> >
> >> > A quite different tradition was being influenced by structuralism
> >> and
> >> > by developmental psychology. These twentieth century developments
> >> came
> >> > to the insight that certain invariances in the order of things
> >> > (whether 'inside' or 'outside') were of more significance to  
> human
> >> > understanding than any capacity to represent the apparently  
> enormous
> >> > variety we experience in our living. This changes insight into  
> such
> >> > things as intelligence into what we might today term a more
> >> > 'ecological' insight of - as it were - 'riding the wave' of these
> >> > invariances, rather than more or less accurately representing
> >> > something called 'reality'. This was to lead to Maturana' and
> >> Varela's
> >> > notion of 'natural drift' and von Glasersfeld 'fit', and the  
> various
> >> > studies in 'self-organisation', central of which was von  
> Foerster's
> >> > work. It also leads to a strong refutation of certain  
> implications
> >> of
> >> > Darwin's 'natural selection' as instancing the benefits of
> >> strategems
> >> > of competetiveness., This alternative paradigm, was building a  
> world
> >> > picture of a cooperative rather than a competetive landscape -  
> both
> >> > for the natural world (evolution theory) and the socio/political
> >> > economy.
> >> >
> >> > In neurophysiology, in part inspired by the work of McCulloch,  
> and
> >> > leading to the connectionist model of computing that we now take
> >> > forgranted, it was discovered that this same principle of
> >> invariances
> >> > might begin to point to very powerful ways of investigating  
> neural
> >> > dynamics, in a way that might give rise to the apparent variety  
> of
> >> > human experience. This development, absolutely echoed with that  
> in
> >> > anthropology (Levi Straus, , Benedict, Mead and Bateson) and
> >> > linguistics (Saussure). What Piaget's work on the development of
> >> young
> >> > children demonstrated, was that differences and commonalities can
> >> co-
> >> > exist through a balance of assimilation and accommodation, in  
> which
> >> > human (and other) experience is always a balance between
> >> assimilation
> >> > into existing structures and models, and incorporation of  
> external
> >> > perturbations to these (accommodation). This was of course to  
> lead
> >> > directly into so-called constructivist insights, of which second
> >> order
> >> > cybernetics is part of (as is the biology of cognition), which  
> have
> >> > their fundaments in the insight that it is the interaction of
> >> > 'insight' and 'outside' out of which is generated meaning and
> >> > knowledge (this tradition was shared by Thomas Kuhn when he  
> analysed
> >> > scientific development as the pattern of normal and routine
> >> scientific
> >> > practice, and the eruption of breakthroughs (or 'revolutions'  
> as he
> >> > called them - such as the shift from Newtonian mechanics to
> >> > Einsteinian relativity). The implication of Kuhn's work being  
> that
> >> > progress in science was far different from a rational accretion  
> as
> >> it
> >> > had been taken to be, but was (like human mind) a mix of the
> >> > irrational/emotional AND the logical/rational.
> >> >
> >> > All the above were taken a stage further by our 'founding
> >> fathers' (I
> >> > mean cyb., biology of cognition, second order cyb. etc) when they
> >> > considered linguistic interactions, some implicitly (Maturana and
> >> von
> >> > Foerster) others explicitly (Pask). The shift was come to be
> >> > understood as away from a dualistic and cerebral understanding of
> >> mind
> >> > (celebrated throughout so-called Anglo/US analytical philosophy),
> >> > closely associated with the worship of reason (rationality); to  
> an
> >> > enactive (Varela) or embodied (Maturana) insight into mind  
> (see, for
> >> > instance, Maturana's 'The mind is not in the head'; or Varela  
> et al
> >> > 'The Embodied Mind'). Gordon saw himself as part of this  
> groundshift
> >> > in human understanding. As you possibly know, as a boy 'genius'  
> he
> >> > worked on code breaking at Bletchley with Turing, but his heart  
> was
> >> > 'performance' - theatre as meaning and communication (I mean this
> >> > literally - he was close to Joan Sutherland, and remained on the
> >> > fringes of the theatre all his life). What fascinated Gordon  
> (in his
> >> > earlier work - conversation theory) was how human interaction
> >> managed
> >> > to be so coherent (whether on the theatre stage, or for building
> >> > rockets to go to the moon), when human language was so manifestly
> >> not
> >> > up to the job. Conversation Theory can be understood as  
> continuing
> >> the
> >> > tradition of Goedel, Hilbert and others, in pushing issues to do
> >> with
> >> > logical completeness to their limits (incompleteness). Building  
> on
> >> > this work CT demonstrated WHY human language as it had evolved,  
> had
> >> > evolved for the wrong reasons or in the wrong direction.
> >> >
> >> > As far as I am concerned, CT demonstrates why reason is not  
> seminal
> >> > for human living, and also demonstrates why human beings ARE NOT
> >> > computers, and are not (nor should be ) logical processors.
> >> >
> >> > The reason why Maturana forever stresses that language must be
> >> > understood as connotative rather than denotative, is that given
> >> these
> >> > more constructivism developments (above) meaning and  
> understanding
> >> > have to be explained without reference to some neutral reality.  
> CT
> >> > describes in detail what might constitute a 'real' (ie logical)
> >> > conversation - as an exchange of meanings between autonomous
> >> > languaging beings. And, in taking this to its conclusions, the
> >> theory
> >> > takes such interactions away from human beings to entities of any
> >> sort
> >> > (cities, robots, nations) that might be considered to be
> >> conversing at
> >> > their own level of existence. This IS NOT the that actual human
> >> > linguistic interactions take place.
> >> >
> >> > As a side point, but important one, all the above is in a way
> >> > legitimised by the later work of Wittgenstein, when he too  
> rejected
> >> > the analytical tradition (and Russell). He realised (at more-or- 
> less
> >> > the same historical moment as these other individuals - above),  
> that
> >> > the critical factor of actual human linguistic interactions is
> >> perhaps
> >> > best described as being equivalent to the playing of games. And  
> that
> >> > meaning and understanding are not the end-point of a logical
> >> > unfolding, but are in the effective or not 'playing' of a  
> particular
> >> > 'game' (for instance - building rockets). That rules of the  
> game are
> >> > affirmed and either agreed or not, and then a given game may be
> >> > played, but that this playing of a game (together with its
> >> > consequences - whether building a battleship or writing a  
> novel) is
> >> > the critical thing rather than any so-called 'higher' functions
> >> (such
> >> > as intelligence as in IQ).
> >> >
> >> > And, as far as I am concerned, Gordon in moving to his later  
> work on
> >> > Interaction of Actors Theory, was acknowledging that he had  
> drawn a
> >> > line under CT (that he had 'been there and done that' as we say  
> in
> >> > English), and was considering real-world interactions in line  
> with
> >> the
> >> > implications of cybernetics, second order cybernetics, biology of
> >> > cognition, enactivism and constructivism), and considering that  
> it
> >> is
> >> > out of or emerged from the recurrent interactions of  
> individuals in
> >> > their social living, that things such as 'meaning' and  
> 'knowledge'
> >> > emerge. This is in stark contrast to the so-called 'great men'
> >> thesis
> >> > of history, which suggests that individual 'genius' is the  
> central
> >> > fact. This new paradigm may be summarised by the greatly  
> democratic
> >> > anecdote of Ross Ashby when he stated that "everybody is world
> >> > champion at some game - even if it has not yet been invented".
> >> >
> >> > IAT attempts to synthesise the implications of CT for  
> 'completion'
> >> and
> >> > agreement, in the actual 'messy' world of human interactions.  
> It is
> >> > this 'messy' world which was the focus of andragology (see for
> >> > instance, Gerard de Zeuuw), especially as it plays out in the  
> social
> >> > domain.
> >> >
> >> > Hope that helps,
> >> >
> >> > Roger
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> >> >
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