I totally go along with what you say about individuals acting as filters for the otherwise mass of variety that overwhelms. Indeed, that surely is what social living if about. Get back for a moment to that thread on 'deceit' and 'transparency'...............Surely, Joe, it would be more accurate to describe what you described in terms of 'filters' than in terms of 'deceit'. In other words, one might say that 'acting as a filter' for various views  is 'deceit' or one might say it is (simply) acting as a filter......

I suppose I was just bewildered at the easy adoption of the CONCEPT of deceit in the context we were. 

To return to a passing comment Luc made recently - indeed, this is where a Paskian shared white-space might be invaluable!


PS Joe, am starting to try and be a bit more active on my Facebook - have included a couple of photos from my new house that you might find of interest. It's about two miles from the one you visited, with a completely different vista. The thing it lacks is the attic that you and Chris attacked to after our intense sessions!

On 13 Jan 2011, at 06:37, Joseph Truss wrote:

Russell and all,

I found it to be an interesting story and I thought Vladimir's response was accidentally attached to the wrong message (as Roger has pointed out, Vladimir sometimes responds without attaching what he is responding to).

I do post links on scientific stories and developments that I think might be interesting to at least some of us, and I do look for the rather unusual or bleeding edge scenarios or examples. How do you jog the open mind?

 I have a rather broad (which includes the leading edge of the crazy) net that helps me filter a much wider source of information than I would otherwise have time or even interest in.

For me it is simple network arithmetic.  As an example one of the more prolific of my individual contacts who is an inventor, encyclopedic in interest and attention and also happens to be very engaged with the paranormal, passes me probably one in fifty of his 'chunks'.  Occasionally he will pass me an item on the paranormal that I would normally ignore but it is his connectedness to the subject through his own variety that I trust.  Through this filter I get to skim the cream of a larger pot I would otherwise never have the time to tend and stir. (In the case of the paranormal, it would have to be a very special item for me to consider posting here!) ;-)} There are others who are very selective and send me only what they think I will appreciate, so maybe I get one in five from them, and so on. I earmark about twenty of these and my own items over time for Metaphorum and will end up posting none to five, depending on context, interest or response, the level of activity and of course, how much time I spend on here.

We are all filters for each other and what I try to provide is mitigated by my own connections, interests, and my sense of what might jog the sensibilities of a conversation, member, or the forum. I start with the broadest context for interest and go on feedback. I consider it a collaborative activity and I participate openly.  I assume this is the same for others. 

I recognize that this kind of filtration is quite different from the filtration we get from Roger, Russell and others, through their lengthy and for me greatly appreciated expositions (I don't mean to conflate these different domains, Roger). Their commentary is thoughtful and they take the time to describe, explain, defend and clarify their ideas.  Some people like short, pithy messages they can 'scan' quickly and Roger accuses himself of long-winded over intellectualization, but for me his power of explanation is exemplary.

Anyway, I was quite surprised at the response elicited by Russell's post.  No criticism intended Vladimir but a question. Were you as offended by Russell's post as your 'colourful' language suggested?  If so please explain.

Best regards,


From: russell_c <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 6:46:14 AM
Subject: Re: Massive black hole discovered in nearby galaxy - The function of these sorts of fora

Roger & Vladimir

I'm out of this loop.

It was just an interesting story that I though some here might appreciate (Joe for instance who also posts scientific discovery stories from time to time). Links were given.

I was busy and rushing and I did not take enough time to explain my context I agree. There was no implied connection to any other fora flora or fauna from my perspective. 

Interpretations towards that conclusion are unfortunate and it was not intended. 

The comment from me would have been in regard to the language used in the narrative that implies this was a current reality when in fact it occurred 30 million years ago. It takes that long the observable phenomena to reach earth. What is happening today at that place-time will not be recorded here until 30 million years into our future. Perhaps nothing meaningful will have happened there in that time frame -- but I sure as know that there will have been a dozen or so interglacial cycles here by then and we won't be here to observe it. 

Has anyone checked for solar flares lately? ... ;-)p

Perhaps useful for researchers of virtual-social experiences.


On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Well, Russell,

I suppose Vladimir has a point here, though his language is fairly colourful!

We do tend to raise topics of personal interest, assuming that the forum itself is constituted by like-minded people, and that they will be interested in what we are interested in. I'm as guilty as anyone.

Maybe the unwritten rule is that when we do so, we attempt to render our observation in discourse relevant to the forum itself.  So, for instance (this is a personal reflection, not on the one hand a criticism of  others; or on the other, a proposal for a specific action): I would be fascinated to see how this 'discovery' might fit into Erich Jantsch's thesis as to the self-organizing universe (incorporating as he does, findings from systems thinking, non-equilibrium thermodynamics, complexity sciences and chaos theory, second order cybernetics etc.). 

On the other hand, on recently glancing and browsing a couple of other fora, I think the self-imposed discipline of 'keeping to he point' can often be carried too far, and take us an unnecessary distance from a Paskian conversational domain, and too far toward some sort of impersonal lists of statements, without even personal linkages.

Just some thoughts..........


On 11 Jan 2011, at 12:10, Vladimir wrote:

What the hell are you posting? I'm glad that my English is far from being able to get me involved in cancerous sort of discussions taking place on this forum.

11.01.2011 15:03 пользователь "russell_c" <[log in to unmask]> написал:
> Now that is a news story ... too bad it's 30millions year out of date!
> Massive black hole discovered in nearby galaxy
> US astronomers have discovered a huge black hole, a million times the mass
> of the sun, in a nearby galaxy - a finding that could help better understand
> the origins of the universe.
> The announcement by the American Astronomical Society (AAS) said the
> surprise discovery in a so-called "dwarf" galaxy offers evidence that black
> holes - regions of space where not even light can escape - formed before the
> build-up of galaxies.
> "This galaxy gives us important clues about a very early phase of galaxy
> evolution that has not been observed before," said Amy Reines, a researcher
> at the University of Virginia who presented the findings to the AAS annual
> meeting.
> The galaxy, called Henize 2-10, is 30 million light-years from Earth, has
> been studied for years, and is forming stars very rapidly.
> It resembles what scientists think were some of the first galaxies to form
> in the early universe.
> Ms Reines along with Gregory Sivakoff and Kelsey Johnson of the University
> of Virginia and the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO), and Crystal
> Brogan of the NRAO, observed Henize 2-10 with the National Science
> Foundation's very large array radio telescope and with the Hubble Space
> Telescope.
> They found a region near the centre of the galaxy that strongly emits radio
> waves with characteristics of those emitted by super-fast "jets" of material
> spewed outward from areas close to a black hole.
> They then searched images from the Chandra X-Ray Observatory that showed
> this same, radio-bright region to be strongly emitting energetic X-rays.
> This combination, they said, indicates an active, black-hole-powered,
> galactic nucleus.
> "Not many dwarf galaxies are known to have massive black holes," Mr Sivakoff
> said.
> While black holes of roughly the same mass as the one in Henize 2-10 have
> been found in other galaxies, those galaxies all have much more regular
> shapes.
> "This galaxy probably resembles those in the very young universe, when
> galaxies were just starting to form and were colliding frequently," Mr
> Johnson said.
> "All its properties, including the supermassive black hole, are giving us
> important new clues about how these black holes and galaxies formed at that
> time."
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