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Russell,

Yes, well I go along with your (bracketed) "hmmm, cough, cough...  
etc..."! ☺

On a mores serious note, I think I understand your searching for some  
basic 'laws' or 'findings' which might enable us to make at least half- 
sensible guestimates about possible futures and likely outcomes in  
this 'messy' world.

Possibly it's just that my line of search is different from your own.

Roger





On 10 Jan 2011, at 11:49, russell_c wrote:

> As far as I am aware Roger, this is a reasonably accurate 1-person/ 
> sided 'good enough' account of a real event. The quality of  
> description may be sub-optimal. The original intent was to  
> communicate to an unknown diverse audience. The inclusion here to  
> share and perhaps get some hint or learned/expert comment -- maybe  
> something like "Law 101 dimbo! -- see Smith vs Jones 1987."  (hmmm,  
> cough, cough... etc...)
>
> ;-)
>
> rc
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Roger Harnden  
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> In part because I'm in a grumpy 'Frank mood', on a very windy, wet  
> and cold Monday morning!
>
> Mind, I did feel my comments about the 'author's preconceptions'  
> might apply, Russell.
>
> Roger
> On 10 Jan 2011, at 11:13, russell_c wrote:
>
>> "Actually, it turns out it was fabricated (with the author's  
>> boundary conditions - sorry, Russell)."-- how do you come to this  
>> conclusion Roger?
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask] 
>> > wrote:
>> Well, I'm reluctant to admit this, Frank.......but I think I go  
>> along with you again!
>>
>> My main problem is the 'exercise' itself......which I tool as a  
>> query (my mistake). Actually, it turns out it was fabricated (with  
>> the author's boundary conditions - sorry, Russell). I think it  
>> stands as an example of what von Foerster called an 'illegitimate  
>> question' (a question posed for which the questioner already knows  
>> the answer).
>>
>> On the other hand, Frank, we are in the minority. Others accepted  
>> it as a worthwhile exercise, and took the porous boundary  
>> conditions as non-porous (the mark of the 'good' student!).
>>
>> I'm afraid, Frank, you and I are just dunces this time!
>>
>>
>> Roger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 Jan 2011, at 00:54, Frank Wood wrote:
>>
>> Sorry Russell,
>> I can't go for this nonsense about reductionism. I repeat - you  
>> cannot be responsible for other people's actions. You can only be  
>> responsible for your own actions.
>>
>> This case is not some sort of horrendous complex systems thingy,  
>> it's really quite simple and to call me reductionist because I  
>> state the obvious is laughable!
>>
>> D is responsible for his actions, B is responsible for her actions.  
>> From what I can gather his maneuver was a tricky one that required  
>> great concentration. If  his concentration is that easily broken  
>> then he should not be flying kites. I note that D also contends (in  
>> his view) that this may have happened without B's interference.
>>
>> What I find interesting is the usual over analytical over  
>> intellectual approach of (mercifully) some Cyberneticians so it's  
>> little wonder that these people have not got anywhere nor will get  
>> anywhere when they get so easily bogged down.
>>
>> BTW what do you think of my previous comment that maybe some of the  
>> hostility towards D on that forum may have been because they felt  
>> his reluctance to accept total responsibility made them all look  
>> irresponsible and stupid in the eyes of opponents of kite flyers on  
>> beaches?
>>
>> Also I can't see how stating that D is 100% responsible for his  
>> actions is a personal attack.
>>
>> I find it a little depressing that many Cyberneticists just don't  
>> get it, are appalling at communication (oh irony of ironies!) and  
>> just don't want to come down from their ivory towers.
>>
>> But as they say "c'est la vie", maybe it's a good thing if it keeps  
>> them off the streets!
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
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