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Russell, I'm just feeling my way here, and am not presently certain of what I'm saying. I just always find myself edging to the matter of 'identity' (whether of the human individual, the system or whatever. Because I think that somewhere it is the blurring of 'external' identities (such as the nation, or the tribe) that comes to emdbody the power play of a given culture, and that this all-too-often has a detrimental impact on human beings when the traditional 'meta' (such as myths or spirit or religion) degenerates.


Roger


On 4 Jan 2011, at 11:09, russell_c wrote:

"Afterwards, the interface was experienced by both the kids and the mother as an actual interface outside the system of the humans in their human relationships; whereas before, this line (this distinction or the entailed system-in-focus) was conflated with the technological. technological and human had become blurred."

Are you saying, in effect, they went from communicating through the system to communicating with it?

btw: Susan Maushart was originally from New York I think and married an Australian.      http://www.bloomsbury.com/authors/details.aspx?tpid=646  One of Rupert's girls I think.  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/columnists/susan-maushart

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Begin forwarded message:

From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 4 January 2011 09:29:59 GMT
To: Cybernetics Discussion Group <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Connected or Connected??: technical & human

Vladimir,

I had a further thought. There is another critical factor (as far as the VSM is concerned). This is definition (or distinction) of the entailed systems. If you remember, for Stafford the initial distinction is crucial for ongoing 'unfolding' and analysis (whether for design or diagnosis) - this is equivalent to Spencer Brown's 'first mark'. The first mark determines the degrees of freedom for consequent unfolding.

So to reflect on my previous question which you were kind enough to reply to (below), there is a critical issue of where the 'interface' is indicated in that this will in great part determine the experienced identity of the entailed systems. So, in my examples from the book by Susan Maushart (who, incidentally, Russell, is Australian, though has recently moved to New York), one might say that it was the location of the interface that changed from the time before the family undertook the experiment of being without access to electronic gadgetry to the time after. Afterwards, the interface was experienced by both the kids and the mother as an actual interface outside the system of the humans in their human relationships; whereas before, this line (this distinction or the entailed system-in-focus) was conflated with the technological. technological and human had become blurred.

Roger

On 3 Jan 2011, at 12:08, Vladimir wrote:

If I understand Stafford Beer he meant by organization decoupling (I.e. disconnecting) of a system to reduce its variety. Although in VSM he was adding variety expressed in bits that makes manifest allowable interaction between subsystems (of S1) he implicitly made them RELATIVELY decoupled by stating their viability.
Returning to your question, Roger, the difference between availability of connection and permanent connection is only due to different capacity of information channel.

Vladimir Talala

03.01.2011 14:18 п©п╬п╩я▄п╥п╬п╡п╟я┌п╣п╩я▄ "Roger Harnden" <[log in to unmask]> п╫п╟п©п╦я│п╟п╩:


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