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Russell, I'm just feeling my way here, and am not presently certain of  
what I'm saying. I just always find myself edging to the matter of  
'identity' (whether of the human individual, the system or whatever.  
Because I think that somewhere it is the blurring of 'external'  
identities (such as the nation, or the tribe) that comes to emdbody  
the power play of a given culture, and that this all-too-often has a  
detrimental impact on human beings when the traditional 'meta' (such  
as myths or spirit or religion) degenerates.


Roger


On 4 Jan 2011, at 11:09, russell_c wrote:

> "Afterwards, the interface was experienced by both the kids and the  
> mother as an actual interface outside the system of the humans in  
> their human relationships; whereas before, this line (this  
> distinction or the entailed system-in-focus) was conflated with the  
> technological. technological and human had become blurred."
>
> Are you saying, in effect, they went from communicating through the  
> system to communicating with it?
>
> btw: Susan Maushart was originally from New York I think and married  
> an Australian.      http://www.bloomsbury.com/authors/details.aspx?tpid=646 
>   One of Rupert's girls I think.  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/columnists/susan-maushart
>
> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Roger Harnden  
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: 4 January 2011 09:29:59 GMT
>> To: Cybernetics Discussion Group <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Connected or Connected??: technical & human
>>
>> Vladimir,
>>
>> I had a further thought. There is another critical factor (as far  
>> as the VSM is concerned). This is definition (or distinction) of  
>> the entailed systems. If you remember, for Stafford the initial  
>> distinction is crucial for ongoing 'unfolding' and analysis  
>> (whether for design or diagnosis) - this is equivalent to Spencer  
>> Brown's 'first mark'. The first mark determines the degrees of  
>> freedom for consequent unfolding.
>>
>> So to reflect on my previous question which you were kind enough to  
>> reply to (below), there is a critical issue of where the  
>> 'interface' is indicated in that this will in great part determine  
>> the experienced identity of the entailed systems. So, in my  
>> examples from the book by Susan Maushart (who, incidentally,  
>> Russell, is Australian, though has recently moved to New York), one  
>> might say that it was the location of the interface that changed  
>> from the time before the family undertook the experiment of being  
>> without access to electronic gadgetry to the time after.  
>> Afterwards, the interface was experienced by both the kids and the  
>> mother as an actual interface outside the system of the humans in  
>> their human relationships; whereas before, this line (this  
>> distinction or the entailed system-in-focus) was conflated with the  
>> technological. technological and human had become blurred.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>> On 3 Jan 2011, at 12:08, Vladimir wrote:
>>
>>> If I understand Stafford Beer he meant by organization decoupling  
>>> (I.e. disconnecting) of a system to reduce its variety. Although  
>>> in VSM he was adding variety expressed in bits that makes manifest  
>>> allowable interaction between subsystems (of S1) he implicitly  
>>> made them RELATIVELY decoupled by stating their viability.
>>> Returning to your question, Roger, the difference between  
>>> availability of connection and permanent connection is only due to  
>>> different capacity of information channel.
>>>
>>> Vladimir Talala
>>>
>>> 03.01.2011 14:18 п©п╬п╩я▄п╥п╬п╡п╟я┌п╣п╩я▄ "Rog 
>>> er Harnden" <[log in to unmask]>  
>>> п╫п╟п©п╦я│п╟п╩:
>>
>
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