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In part because I'm in a grumpy 'Frank mood', on a very windy, wet and  
cold Monday morning!

Mind, I did feel my comments about the 'author's preconceptions' might  
apply, Russell.

Roger
On 10 Jan 2011, at 11:13, russell_c wrote:

> "Actually, it turns out it was fabricated (with the author's  
> boundary conditions - sorry, Russell)."-- how do you come to this  
> conclusion Roger?
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Roger Harnden  
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Well, I'm reluctant to admit this, Frank.......but I think I go  
> along with you again!
>
> My main problem is the 'exercise' itself......which I tool as a  
> query (my mistake). Actually, it turns out it was fabricated (with  
> the author's boundary conditions - sorry, Russell). I think it  
> stands as an example of what von Foerster called an 'illegitimate  
> question' (a question posed for which the questioner already knows  
> the answer).
>
> On the other hand, Frank, we are in the minority. Others accepted it  
> as a worthwhile exercise, and took the porous boundary conditions as  
> non-porous (the mark of the 'good' student!).
>
> I'm afraid, Frank, you and I are just dunces this time!
>
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
> On 10 Jan 2011, at 00:54, Frank Wood wrote:
>
> Sorry Russell,
> I can't go for this nonsense about reductionism. I repeat - you  
> cannot be responsible for other people's actions. You can only be  
> responsible for your own actions.
>
> This case is not some sort of horrendous complex systems thingy,  
> it's really quite simple and to call me reductionist because I state  
> the obvious is laughable!
>
> D is responsible for his actions, B is responsible for her actions.  
> From what I can gather his maneuver was a tricky one that required  
> great concentration. If  his concentration is that easily broken  
> then he should not be flying kites. I note that D also contends (in  
> his view) that this may have happened without B's interference.
>
> What I find interesting is the usual over analytical over  
> intellectual approach of (mercifully) some Cyberneticians so it's  
> little wonder that these people have not got anywhere nor will get  
> anywhere when they get so easily bogged down.
>
> BTW what do you think of my previous comment that maybe some of the  
> hostility towards D on that forum may have been because they felt  
> his reluctance to accept total responsibility made them all look  
> irresponsible and stupid in the eyes of opponents of kite flyers on  
> beaches?
>
> Also I can't see how stating that D is 100% responsible for his  
> actions is a personal attack.
>
> I find it a little depressing that many Cyberneticists just don't  
> get it, are appalling at communication (oh irony of ironies!) and  
> just don't want to come down from their ivory towers.
>
> But as they say "c'est la vie", maybe it's a good thing if it keeps  
> them off the streets!
>
> Frank
>
>
>
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