Print

Print


Dear Trevor,
A quick reply.

[TEH] Evidence of what?

I'm refering to the url you sent. There they made assertions without any evidence to back them up. 

 I[TEH] simply stated that the cybernetics of LoveMachine's Rewarder system were interesting. You seem to have read all sorts of things into it that were not there. 

No, I acknowledged that in my first post to  you (see below):

"The cybernetics of the Rewarder Bonus Scheme may be interesting but what would be more interesting would to be to see how the bad old laws of group dynamics kicks in."

Yeh Branson is good at PR which begs the question just how good at PR are these wonderful companies who trumpet that they have worker democracy.

As I said yes worker democracy and Rewarder Bonus may work in some types of companies but are not practical in probably the majority of companies and this idea that if you change the context and give the workers power is wishful thinking. If people think that just by changing the context etc that suddenly the workers will say "oh I just love coming to work now" had better get their rose tinted glasses surgically removed.

I get a little tired of this blind spot people have of human nature. It's not surprising really because it's also human nature lol.

All I can say is that the bonus system I experienced all those years ago worked well and was fair enough.

Anyway I"ve made my points and I'm not going to get bogged down with endless rounds of discussion. We'll just have to agree to disagree. 

Frank

On 31 Mar 2010, at 16:18, Trevor E Hilder wrote:

Dear Frank,

See my responses below:

Regards,
Trevor   

On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:29, Frank Wood <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear Trevor,
Call it experience of life or whatever. I might be more convinced if I could see hard evidence backed up with facts and figures.

[TEH] Evidence of what? I simply stated that the cybernetics of LoveMachine's Rewarder system were interesting. You seem to have read all sorts of things into it that were not there. 

Semco may be a good example but how many Semcos are there? Yep maybe a few but I can't see this form of doing business catching on for reasons I've already given and further ones below.

[TEH] Lots of people no doubt couldn't see Ford's mass production system catching on when he invented it. But any means of wealth creation that outperforms everything else by an order of magnitude can't be ignored forever. 


I don't think it's a question of assuming nothing can be done. It's a case of understanding human nature and what drives us and the What's In It For Me is the usual main driver no matter how fondly we think we are altruistic blah blah.

[TEH] it depends what sort of work you do. People who invent things for a living are not motivated the way you assume is "normal". If they were, open source software would not be higher in quality than commercial software. 


Like I said maybe just maybe it might work in the areas of project work and project teams but I doubt if it could be translated in any meaningful to most organisations. Certainly not in mine nor in any organisation I have worked in. Org Man and group dynamics will ensure that it will be corrupted in one way or another. 


[TEH] Who said that such systems of remuneration were applicable to the kind of organisation you have worked for?

If you look at my scenarios again I think you'll see what I'm driving at.

I'm always a bit leery when I read of these miracle stories.


[TEH] What miracle story are you referring to? I have no idea what you are talking about?

I remember years ago reading just how wonderful Richard Branson was, friend of the workers etc etc and then I was smartly corrected by employees of Virgin who said the whole company sucked.

[TEH] I know people who have had the misfortune to work in a Virgin Mobile call centre, and it is very unpleasant unless you are willing to join the Cult, in which case it is wonderful. This just shows that Branson is good at PR. 

I can't see how this is relevant to the subject I raised. 

Maybe Semco has made it and maybe a few companies will benefit from the Rewarder system. All I'm saying is that it's pretty easy to manipulate and if it's easy then there'll be plenty of people willing to do that.

Finally as regards the wonderful idea of workers' democracy, most of my colleagues just want to go into work, do their bit and get home. They've not got the remotest interest in being involved in the company. Most people look at a job as just being a job that earns them money, nothing more or less. Again if you're in IT projects or other projects that might be different but lets not get all misty eyed about worker democracy and "fair' bonus systems.


[TEH] You seem to have read many things into my post that are not there. Rosedale's ideas are obviously not applicable to the horribly dysfunctional organisation that you refer to, but nobody suggested they should be. 

Wealth creation in the modern world is supposedly driven by innovation (although the evidence for this is pretty scanty). Rosedale is a proven innovator with a great track record of managing very complex projects and delivering successful ICT systems for less than a tenth of the cost of, say Microsoft, doing the same job (although it is doubtful they could even conceive of the idea, let alone make it work). 

So it seems to me that his ideas about how to do this kind of thing deserve attention and respect. I fail to see what this has got to do with miracles or utopian dreams. This guy's ideas may seem off-the-wall, but they also seem to work! 

Regards

Frank

On 31 Mar 2010, at 13:33, Trevor E Hilder wrote:

Dear Frank,

Ooh - you are such an old cynic :-)

Ricardo Semler has been running Semco in Sao Paulo, Brazil, along similar lines for over twenty years and it has been enormously successful in one of the most corrupt places on the planet.

Philip Rosedale, the founder of LoveMachine, developed Second Life from scratch to its current state of development in less than six years applying similar methods.

If you set out assuming that nothing can be done, you won't get very far, will you?

On 31 Mar 2010, at 13:25, Frank Wood wrote:

Dear Trevor,
Interesting.

However master power political players will soon find a way to make sure they get a nice fat share of the goodies!

And that's the problem. People go starry eyed over cybernetics, VSMs, Law of Requisite of Variety but these add up to nothing if you don't factor in the power politics especially in larger organsiations. 

Also the application is very limited - if it could work it could only work with project teams and not companies as a whole. 

It would have been nice if they had mentioned somewhere on their page facts and figures to back up their claims that it is fair.

Once again this is a good example of people's touching faith in the goodness of human nature! I remember seeing a documentary about an advertising agency who decided to bring in democracy into the workplace. It was sadly hilarious to watch the company nearly go under as it descended into chaos.

So here's a scenario to ponder. I'm working in a company that has the Rewarder Bonus Scheme in use. And as all of us are human we are all subscribers to that well known radio station WIIFM (What's In It For Me). I have the dosh and I look around at my colleagues. Who to give it to? Well obviously those that have been helpful to me or those that could be helpful to me. Am I going to give it to an unsung hero that is or will or has not been of any help to me? Unlikely. Right that's part  1 of the scenario.

Part 2 is where I then start to wonder how I am going to get my bonus regardless of whether I deserve it or not. So I target likely donors who might benefit from my help or networking abilities. Again I'm not likely to help those that are unlikely to give me a bonus (because I've been unwilling or unable to help them).

You can see the mess beginning to emerge :-) 

Another reservation. How would you feel if you got a low bonus or no bonus at all? There's gonna be losers in this as well and I doubt if all or maybe even most of them will be deserved losers. Can you imagine the devastating loss of morale that could emerge?

So what to put in its place?

I used to work for a company where everyone got a bonus. A pot of money was set aside twice a year from the profits. You got 1 point per 1,000 salary and 1 point for every year of service you had there. Yes, the problem of "golden" handcuffs was present but at the same time it worked well and whilst the usual office politics were in operation the line between profits and the effectiveness of your work was there to see.

The beauty of this bonus system is that it is totally independent of any sort of interference apart from the usual ones eg annual salary negotiations. 

The cybernetics of the Rewarder Bonus Scheme may be interesting but what would be more interesting would to be to see how the bad old laws of group dynamics kicks in.

Regards

Frank
 



On 31 Mar 2010, at 11:52, Trevor E Hilder wrote:

Dear all,

The cybernetics of this are interesting!

-- 
Regards,
 Trevor                            [log in to unmask]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- 
Regards,
 Trevor                            [log in to unmask]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~