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Dear Frank,

See my responses below:

Regards,
Trevor

On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:29, Frank Wood <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear Trevor,
> Call it experience of life or whatever. I might be more convinced if  
> I could see hard evidence backed up with facts and figures.

[TEH] Evidence of what? I simply stated that the cybernetics of  
LoveMachine's Rewarder system were interesting. You seem to have read  
all sorts of things into it that were not there.

> Semco may be a good example but how many Semcos are there? Yep maybe  
> a few but I can't see this form of doing business catching on for  
> reasons I've already given and further ones below.

[TEH] Lots of people no doubt couldn't see Ford's mass production  
system catching on when he invented it. But any means of wealth  
creation that outperforms everything else by an order of magnitude  
can't be ignored forever.

>
> I don't think it's a question of assuming nothing can be done. It's  
> a case of understanding human nature and what drives us and the  
> What's In It For Me is the usual main driver no matter how fondly we  
> think we are altruistic blah blah.

[TEH] it depends what sort of work you do. People who invent things  
for a living are not motivated the way you assume is "normal". If they  
were, open source software would not be higher in quality than  
commercial software.

>
> Like I said maybe just maybe it might work in the areas of project  
> work and project teams but I doubt if it could be translated in any  
> meaningful to most organisations. Certainly not in mine nor in any  
> organisation I have worked in. Org Man and group dynamics will  
> ensure that it will be corrupted in one way or another.
>

[TEH] Who said that such systems of remuneration were applicable to  
the kind of organisation you have worked for?

> If you look at my scenarios again I think you'll see what I'm  
> driving at.
>
> I'm always a bit leery when I read of these miracle stories.
>

[TEH] What miracle story are you referring to? I have no idea what you  
are talking about?

> I remember years ago reading just how wonderful Richard Branson was,  
> friend of the workers etc etc and then I was smartly corrected by  
> employees of Virgin who said the whole company sucked.

[TEH] I know people who have had the misfortune to work in a Virgin  
Mobile call centre, and it is very unpleasant unless you are willing  
to join the Cult, in which case it is wonderful. This just shows that  
Branson is good at PR.

I can't see how this is relevant to the subject I raised.

> Maybe Semco has made it and maybe a few companies will benefit from  
> the Rewarder system. All I'm saying is that it's pretty easy to  
> manipulate and if it's easy then there'll be plenty of people  
> willing to do that.
>
> Finally as regards the wonderful idea of workers' democracy, most of  
> my colleagues just want to go into work, do their bit and get home.  
> They've not got the remotest interest in being involved in the  
> company. Most people look at a job as just being a job that earns  
> them money, nothing more or less. Again if you're in IT projects or  
> other projects that might be different but lets not get all misty  
> eyed about worker democracy and "fair' bonus systems.
>

[TEH] You seem to have read many things into my post that are not  
there. Rosedale's ideas are obviously not applicable to the horribly  
dysfunctional organisation that you refer to, but nobody suggested  
they should be.

Wealth creation in the modern world is supposedly driven by innovation  
(although the evidence for this is pretty scanty). Rosedale is a  
proven innovator with a great track record of managing very complex  
projects and delivering successful ICT systems for less than a tenth  
of the cost of, say Microsoft, doing the same job (although it is  
doubtful they could even conceive of the idea, let alone make it work).

So it seems to me that his ideas about how to do this kind of thing  
deserve attention and respect. I fail to see what this has got to do  
with miracles or utopian dreams. This guy's ideas may seem off-the- 
wall, but they also seem to work!

> Regards
>
> Frank
>
> On 31 Mar 2010, at 13:33, Trevor E Hilder wrote:
>
>> Dear Frank,
>>
>> Ooh - you are such an old cynic :-)
>>
>> Ricardo Semler has been running Semco in Sao Paulo, Brazil, along  
>> similar lines for over twenty years and it has been enormously  
>> successful in one of the most corrupt places on the planet.
>>
>> Philip Rosedale, the founder of LoveMachine, developed Second Life  
>> from scratch to its current state of development in less than six  
>> years applying similar methods.
>>
>> If you set out assuming that nothing can be done, you won't get  
>> very far, will you?
>>
>> On 31 Mar 2010, at 13:25, Frank Wood wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Trevor,
>>> Interesting.
>>>
>>> However master power political players will soon find a way to  
>>> make sure they get a nice fat share of the goodies!
>>>
>>> And that's the problem. People go starry eyed over cybernetics,  
>>> VSMs, Law of Requisite of Variety but these add up to nothing if  
>>> you don't factor in the power politics especially in larger  
>>> organsiations.
>>>
>>> Also the application is very limited - if it could work it could  
>>> only work with project teams and not companies as a whole.
>>>
>>> It would have been nice if they had mentioned somewhere on their  
>>> page facts and figures to back up their claims that it is fair.
>>>
>>> Once again this is a good example of people's touching faith in  
>>> the goodness of human nature! I remember seeing a documentary  
>>> about an advertising agency who decided to bring in democracy into  
>>> the workplace. It was sadly hilarious to watch the company nearly  
>>> go under as it descended into chaos.
>>>
>>> So here's a scenario to ponder. I'm working in a company that has  
>>> the Rewarder Bonus Scheme in use. And as all of us are human we  
>>> are all subscribers to that well known radio station WIIFM (What's  
>>> In It For Me). I have the dosh and I look around at my colleagues.  
>>> Who to give it to? Well obviously those that have been helpful to  
>>> me or those that could be helpful to me. Am I going to give it to  
>>> an unsung hero that is or will or has not been of any help to me?  
>>> Unlikely. Right that's part  1 of the scenario.
>>>
>>> Part 2 is where I then start to wonder how I am going to get my  
>>> bonus regardless of whether I deserve it or not. So I target  
>>> likely donors who might benefit from my help or networking  
>>> abilities. Again I'm not likely to help those that are unlikely to  
>>> give me a bonus (because I've been unwilling or unable to help  
>>> them).
>>>
>>> You can see the mess beginning to emerge :-)
>>>
>>> Another reservation. How would you feel if you got a low bonus or  
>>> no bonus at all? There's gonna be losers in this as well and I  
>>> doubt if all or maybe even most of them will be deserved losers.  
>>> Can you imagine the devastating loss of morale that could emerge?
>>>
>>> So what to put in its place?
>>>
>>> I used to work for a company where everyone got a bonus. A pot of  
>>> money was set aside twice a year from the profits. You got 1 point  
>>> per £1,000 salary and 1 point for every year of service you had  
>>> there. Yes, the problem of "golden" handcuffs was present but at 
>>>  the same time it worked well and whilst the usual office politi 
>>> cs were in operation the line between profits and the effectiven 
>>> ess of your work was there to see.
>>>
>>> The beauty of this bonus system is that it is totally independent  
>>> of any sort of interference apart from the usual ones eg annual  
>>> salary negotiations.
>>>
>>> The cybernetics of the Rewarder Bonus Scheme may be interesting  
>>> but what would be more interesting would to be to see how the bad  
>>> old laws of group dynamics kicks in.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 31 Mar 2010, at 11:52, Trevor E Hilder wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> The cybernetics of this are interesting!
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Regards,
>>>>  Trevor                            [log in to unmask]
>>>>
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>>
>> -- 
>> Regards,
>>  Trevor                            [log in to unmask]
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
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>
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