If we stay with this line of giving appropriate survival information to a network of community and grassroots networks which I think is right, then as long as the organized knowledge is good, there might be some future role that cyberneticians in metaphorum could help with.  But this caution about official advice is well founded. Most of us think that the ebst way of saving ourselves is to get beneath something solid..however the note below re the triangle of life from a rescuer gives pause for thought:




This may save your life one day


       My name is Doug Copp. I am the Rescue Chief and Disaster Manager of
the American Rescue Team International (ARTI), the world's most experienced
rescue team. The information in this article will save lives in an

       I have crawled inside 875 collapsed buildings, worked with rescue
teams from 60 countries, founded rescue teams in several countries, and I am
a member of many rescue teams from many countries.

       I was the United Nations expert in Disaster Mitigation for two
years. I have worked at every major disaster in the world since 1985, except
for simultaneous disasters.

       The first building I ever crawled inside of was a school in Mexico
City during the 1985 earthquake. Every child was under its desk. Every child
was crushed to the thickness of their bones. They could have survived by
lying down next to their desks in the aisles. It was obscene, unnecessary
and I wondered why the children were not in the aisles. I didn't at the time
know that the children were told to hide under something.

       Simply stated, when buildings collapse, the weight of the ceilings
falling upon the objects or furniture inside crushes these objects, leaving
a space or void next to them. This space is what I call the 'triangle of
life'.  The larger the object, the stronger, the less it will compact. The
less the object compacts; the larger the void; the greater the probability
that the person who is using this void for safety will not be injured.

       The next time you watch collapsed buildings, on television, count
the 'triangles' you see formed. They are everywhere. It is the most common
shape, you will see, in a collapsed building.


       1) Most everyone who simply 'ducks and covers' WHEN BUILDINGS
COLLAPSE are crushed to death. People who get under objects, like desks or
cars, are crushed.

       2) Cats, dogs and babies often naturally curl up in the fetal
position.  You should too in an earthquake. It is a natural safety/survival
instinct.  You can survive in a smaller void. Get next to an object, next to
a sofa, next to a large bulky object that will compress slightly but leave a
void next to it.

       3) Wooden buildings are the safest type of construction to be in
during an earthquake. Wood is flexible and moves with the force of the
earthquake.  If the wooden building does collapse, large survival voids are
created.  Also, the wooden building has less concentrated, crushing weight.
Brick buildings will break into individual bricks. Bricks will cause many
injuries but less squashed bodies than concrete slabs.

       4) If you are in bed during the night and an earthquake occurs,
simply roll off the bed. A safe void will exist around the bed. Hotels can
achieve a much greater survival rate in earthquakes, simply by posting a
sign on the back of the door of every room telling occupants to lie down on
the floor, next to the bottom of the bed during an earthquake.

       5) If an earthquake happens and you cannot easily escape by getting
out the door or window, then lie down and curl up in the fetal position next
to a sofa, or large chair.

       6) Most everyone who gets under a doorway when buildings collapse is
killed. How? If you stand under a doorway and the doorjamb falls forward or
backward you will be crushed by the ceiling above. If the door jam falls
sideways you will be cut in half by the doorway. In either case, you will be

       7) Never go to the stairs. The stairs have a different 'moment of
frequency' (they swing separately from the main part of the building).  The
stairs and remainder of the building continuously bump into each other until
structural failure of the stairs takes place. The people who get on stairs
before they fail are chopped up by the stair treads - horribly mutilated.
Even if the building doesn't collapse, stay away from the stairs. The stairs
are a likely part of the building to be damaged. Even if the stairs are not
collapsed by the earthquake, they may collapse later when overloaded by
fleeing people. They should always be checked for safety, even when the rest
of the building is not damaged.

       8) Get near the outer walls of buildings or outside of them if
possible. It is much better to be near the outside of the building rather
than the interior. The farther inside you are from the outside perimeter of
the building the greater the probability that your escape route will be

       9) People inside of their vehicles are crushed when the road above
falls in an earthquake and crushes their vehicles; which is exactly what
happened with the slabs between the decks of the Nimitz Freeway. The victims
of the San Francisco earthquake all stayed inside of their vehicles. They
were all killed. They could have easily survived by getting out and sitting
or lying next to their vehicles. Everyone killed would have survived if they
had been able to get out of their cars and sit or lie next to them. All the
crushed cars had voids 3 feet high next to them, except for the cars that
had columns fall directly across them.

       10) I discovered, while crawling inside of collapsed newspaper
offices and other offices with a lot of paper that paper does not compact.
Large voids are found surrounding stacks of paper.

       Spread the word and save someone's life... The Entire world is
experiencing natural calamities so be prepared!

       'We are but angels with one wing, it takes two to fly'

       In 1996 we made a film, which proved my survival methodology to be
correct. The Turkish Federal Government, City of Istanbul, University of
Istanbul Case Productions and ARTI cooperated to film this practical,
scientific test. We collapsed a school and a home with 20 mannequins inside.
Ten mannequins did 'duck and cover,' and ten mannequins I used in my
'triangle of life' survival method. After the simulated earthquake collapse
we crawled through the rubble and entered the building to film and document
the results. The film, in which I practiced my survival techniques under
directly observable, scientific conditions, relevant to building collapse,
showed there would have been zero percent survival for those doing duck and

       There would likely have been 100 percent survivability for people
using my method of the 'triangle of life.' This film has been seen by
millions of viewers on television in Turkey and the rest of Europe, and it
was seen in the USA, Canada and Latin America on the TV program Real TV.



 <> Glitter Graphics


-----Original Message-----
From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: 04 March 2010 07:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Chile Quake. Message from Max neef


Hi all. 

This stirs me to at last offer my contribution to the Metaphorum, after long silence, because apart from Stafford's connection to Chile, as many Metaphorum members know, my good friend Manfred Max-Neef is also Chilean.  He lives in Valdivia, which is very much in the heart of where the destruction is.  


Enrique, do you know Manfred perhaps?  You will surely know about him, for having contested the 1993 Presidential elections to try to infuse some sense of reality into the discourse.  Strangely neither Stafford nor Manfred were aware of each other's work, leaving me in the extraordinary role of trying to connect them.  Sadly Stafford passed on before my ambition to get them together in the same room was realised. 


He called me two days ago to reassure me that he and his family were fine, and asked me to put word to all our mutual friends, some of whom intersect with the Metaphorum network.  I couldnt resist adding some commentary, because of the serendipitous coincidence that I discovered.   Charles Darwin, experienced an earthquake in Valdivia as well, which he reflects upon during his Voyage of the Beagle. 


I reproduce my message to that network below.   I dont know if Stafford ever visited Valdivia, during his time in Chile, or whether he ever reflected on the geo-physical systems that collide along the Chilean coastline, but my closing comment could equally include Stafford, together with Darwin and Manfred Max-Neef, as rare geniuses shaped by the tumultuous political, geo-physical environment of Chile.  


On a more serious note, I heard on Aljazeera TV last night (after sending out the message) that the Chilean Navy has acknowledged it made a big mistake in cancelling the Tsunami warning.  The spokesperson tried valiantly to give a coherent explanation, but I couldnt help thinking that the ensuing deaths from the tsunami that was 'officially' not supposed to have occurred would have been avoided if Stafford's contribution had been more deeply entrenched in Chile's governance systems.   


Enrique, I would value your thoughts on that, besides any other thoughts.  Chile is very close to my heart. 


 Hi friends and friends of Manfred.
We recently had a call from Manfred Max-Neef, phoning from Valdivia to Johannesburg to reassure his friends with whom I have contact in South Africa and elsewhere who may be concerned about his well-being due to the earth quake, aftershock and Tsunami that has struck Chile.  
“We are dependent on telephone and word of mouth, because the internet based communications have been disrupted” he told us.
He asked me to put the word out to his many friends around the world that he and his family and are so far well.  But there is much suffering and hardship.  

Chile has experienced several very large earthquakes over recorded history.  The most severe earthquake in the 20th Century happened in 1960 which devastated the city of Valdivia.   When I visited Manfred in Valdivia in 1996 there was still evidence of the impact of that earthquake.
CNN is reporting tonight that the death toll would have been higher had residents followed the official urgings of government officials for people to return to their homes, because the region continues to experience large aftershocks.
One woman interviewed said “We followed the guidance of our parents and grandparents instead, who experienced earthquakes before.  If we had done what the government had told us we would have been dead.”
I cant resist commenting that this reliance on indigenous understanding passed on at the ‘human scale’ rather than the abstract knowledge passed down the line of government officials is of course exactly what Manfred has sought to encourage.  
Taking the advice of that resilient survivor filmed by CNN, I have been re-reading the reflections of that ‘Great great grandparent’ of evolutionary theory Charles Darwin.  
Ironically I discovered that in 1835, Charles Darwin experienced an earthquake while ashore in Valdivia during his historic Voyage of the Beagle.  
I was fascinated by Darwin’s account of his direct experience in Valdivia.

February 20th 1835.  – This day has been memorable in the annals of Valdivia, for the most severe earthquake experienced by the oldest inhabitant.  I happened to be on shore, and was lying down in the wood to rest myself.  It came on suddenly and lasted two minutes...

(I have a photo of Manfred from my visit with satisfying his need for idleness after lunch, in much the same posture as Charles Darwin).  
Further into the chapter Darwin reports on the scenes of devastation cum fascination that he and Captain Fitzroy encountered when sailing further to the towns of Conception and Talcahouna, again hard hit by the latest earthquake.  
“Both towns presented the most awful yet interesting spectacle I ever beheld.... for the ruins were so mingled together, and the whole scene possessed so little the air of a habitable place, that is was scarcely possible to imagine its former condition.”
And then, later, a comment on the less savoury responses to such misfortune shown by some members of our human species.  
“Those who had saved any property were obliged to keep a constant watch, for thieves prowled about, and at each little trembling of the ground, with one hand they beat their breasts and cried ‘misericordia’ and then with the other filched what they could from the ruins”

The CNN report of widespread looting suggests that in 2010 the human species has still got a lot more evolving to do.
But to end on a hopeful note.
The fact that I have had the privilege to know as a friend a man whom I regard as every bit an intellectual genius as Darwin, and who has also contributed I believe, to further understanding the evolutionary path of the human species, leaves me pondering that there must be something about the particular geography and geology of Chile that, as much as it is prone to earthquakes favours the evolution of geniuses like Darwin and Manfred Max-Neef.  
This is how Darwin reflected upon his experience in 1837.  
 .... A bad earthquake at once destroys our oldest associations: the earth, the very emblem of solidity, has moved beneath our feet like a thin crust over a fluid; -- one second of time has created in the mind a strange idea of insecurity, which hours of reflection would not have produced. In the forest, as a breeze moved the trees, I felt only the earth tremble, but saw no other effect.”

I will leave Manfred to add his own reflections of his current experience when communication lines are up again.  
Warm regards

John G I Clarke
Consultant Social Worker, Development Facilitator, Writer.
Blairgowrie, Johannesburg.
Tel:  + 27 83 608 0944:    Fax 0866842405
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Post: P.O.Box 2408, Pinegowrie, 2123
Skype: john.gerard.ingram.clarke  
Connecting People.... Managing Ideas.....Choosing Life 



 ----- Original Message ------
 From:Joseph Truss
 Sent:Thursday, March 04, 2010 00:38
 To: [log in to unmask];
 Subject:Re: Chile Quake

Dear Enrique,


Thank you for reporting your whereabouts and relative safety in Santiago as we were immediately worried not knowing where you were. Hopefully all of your family and loved ones are also safe and accounted for.


I think your idea as it develops with Roger, Russell and others is worthwhile and deserves Metaphorum's attention. Count me in.  As you know, Stafford would be at the front of the line leading the charge for your country and el pueblo he so loved.


If we can get our act together, maybe we can present something about it at the ISSS conference July 18 -23 in Waterloo, Ontario.  Allenna is president this year and actively involved with the conference.  She is travelling now but hopefully will be able to advise us as to the possibility soon.



Here is one example of the social network activity going on, I'm sure we could collaboratively come up with some interesting analyses.




Personally Enrique, if you need other forms of assistance please contact me directly - I'd be honored to help in any way I can.

Abrazos a mi hermano,


Joe (and Chris)


Joseph Truss
Team Syntegrity International AG/ Metaphorum / Abbey North Drummers



From: russell_c <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 5:47:00 AM
Subject: Re: Chile Quake

Dear Enrique

I am also willing to help in any practical way, but perhaps Roger's questions need clarification first.

One theme for reflection this forum could be postulating how, in a possible alternate scenario model, a fully functioning and mature Cybersyn system in Chile would have functioned in this situation and what difference it would/could have made.

1973 may seem a distant past, but with 9 billion people due to be settled here on earth by 2050, there is surely going to be more need for coordination systems as natural events like this occur in populated areas.

With the recent destruction in Haiti and now your Chile, there must be increasing risk in California? Or does the stress relief reduce the risk elsewhere on the fault line? 

Kind regards


On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:



I sincerely hope that yourself and those close to you are safe.



I think your invitation on the 'reflexion forum' is extremely interesting from a cybernetic point of view. But let's be clear what you mean, rather than jumping to any conclusions.


I take it that this is not a request for aid as such (which is being addressed for better or worse by others), but a request to use the 'opportunity' (I use the word carefully and with respect for the many tragic human realities of the situation) to 'experiment' with the potential of tools such as social networking - in particular to experiment with the impactl of feedback into the social network (and thence beyond) to investigate whether this is positive, negative or neutral in its impact on how human beings approach such matters or integrate the lessons of such matters into their ongoing social human-ness. Hence your comment about "how the internet is use beyond as a comercial and academic tool?"


If my instinct is correct, I conceive a Luc/Russell- type 'story-telling' forum which records the differing perceptions of 'the world' to such an event, and how or not this perception impacts on the everyday life (and understandings) of those observers.


Is this the sort for thing you mean, Enrque?......or have I stated the issue in a too-academic jargon??






On 2 Mar 2010, at 23:51, enrique rivera wrote:

Hello all,


I am writing you from Santiago, Chile, still in shock because of the quake.

I want to ask for your help in this situation, bringing some attention to this situation. Inestability and chaos are predominating, and social change is happening in the most sad way.


The idea is to create a reflexion forum about how society reacts in this situation (Chilean and global), and how you percibe this from your different countries. In this sense the social web will be key in order to capture the information.


All this information will be use to create a thinking frame and a source to understand from a cybernetic point of view what is happening here after this natural disaster.


How can organizational cybernetics can help in this situations, and how the internet is use beyond as a comercial and academic tool?


Also I invite you to read this investigation about the global efect:


Kind regards,



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