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Luc

For me meaning is a function of memory, stored archetypes we arrange internally, and yes solely internally, but they are nevertheless built from accumulated decisions of a prior events; they are part of the feed-forward mechanism. Nothing I've said here negates the observer-physical arguments its a matter over what time horizon you are working.

Stefan

On 21 Mar 2010, at 11:30, Luc Hoebeke wrote:

> Alfredo,
> Roger,
> 
> No better example of organizational closure than the fact that we are struggling with written words on this Sunday morning. Words and language are not, I repeat not representation of things there outside. The reading of Roger's text is not providing data to you, nor information. You interpret them in your own way, your own idiosyncracies, your own history. Interpreting means to attribute meaning. The origin of meaning is not information, nor data, but your own lived experience as a human being. This is why appreciate so much "misunderstandings", because they appeal to discover meaning or better to create meaning. I agree completely with Roger about the misdirection of AI and the misunderstandings of decision making. A decision is an action in a phenomenal world, is a behaviour. The nefarious split between thinking and doing is the model behind information processing, data processing, knowledge processing, etc.
> 
> As Mephisto states in Faust: in the beginning was the deed.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Luc
> 
> 
> Op 21-mrt-10, om 11:56 heeft Roger Harnden het volgende geschreven:
> 
>> Alfredo,
>> 
>> In my understanding it is as follows......but don't forget this is Sunday morning, so my opinion might be a little sloppy.....
>> 
>> There is organisational closure, and there is the observer. Organisational closure (and all it entails) is an explanatory principle for how such phenomena as the observer may (scientifically-speaking) emerge.
>> 
>> Maturana shows how, through a simple recursive mechanism (coordinations of coordinations of actions/behaviours), the human being with all its human attributes (emotions, the spiritual, reason, language and so on) can be explained to emerge from a biological fabric. His criticism for most of the human sciences is that they make no attempt to consistently bed human higher attributes in such a biological fabric, but talks as if language, mind, spirit etc somehow appear from nothing. His critique of 'objectivist' physics would be similar. And he is saying that such hard' sciences (as physics, chemistry etc) should take account of the fact that the observer (the one who practices them) is a biological being. This is the same consistent message from McCulloch and Bateson onwards.
>> 
>> This is not about decision making. Human decisions are in the domain of the observer, and include all the conventional aspects such as intentionality. The 'decisions' of other organisms may be said to exist, but the observer (ourselves) must take account of the scale of different orders of recursive operations. For example, a flagellum (is that correct?) has two degrees of freedom - right rotation or left rotation. A slug has rather more ..........And these are functions of the structural coupling of an organisationally closed nervous system with a molecular fabric in a phenomenal world, the complexity of that nervous system, and the richness of the motor-sensory architecture. The observer should bear this in mind, and - for instance - be cautious in attributing the term 'decision' to the behaviour of a flagellum.
>> 
>> A decision (as is he case for William Powers) emerges in the domain of behaviour, rather than in the domain of information. Artificial Intelligence fell into the trap of believing that such things as decision might be considered relevant for an isolated brain - that information was somehow, mysteriously a function of brain activity and some sort of external, physical data. Hence its limited achievements.
>> 
>> As is the case for Stafford (and VSM), information is grounded in the coupling of nervous system, the molecular organism and phenomenal environment along a dynamic trajectory of cyclical recurrences which contain no singularities (no data). Singularities are abstracted from this patterning through the higher human attributes (reflection, experimentation, language, thought, social exchange etc). An 'item' (a datum) must be something denoted, else does not exist as 'a datum'. Organisms of all sorts, abstract phenomena that they connote as data, that they treat as if denoted, but which are determined in their significance for the particular organism through recurrent behavioural interactions. Human are no exception. We point to 'that tree there' and in our languaging interactions assume that an item (a datum) has been indicated. What has actually occurred is that a convention of language has been attached to a behavioural interaction, and a general term ('tree') has been treated as if it might particularise or specify a singularity. A singularity might indeed have been indicated but language cannot deal with it.....and hence the whole of the scientific endeavour.
>> 
>> To repeat, our languaging interactions do not and cannot accommodate singularities. Languaging interactions generate and depend  upon meaning (cyclical recurrences).
>> 
>> A decision exists as part of this process of languaging. Mistakes are liable to arise when things such as decisions, are treated as existing outside this process - as if they have a privileged place over such a process. This doesn't lessen the significance of such things as decisions, but brackets any claims that either decisions or information 'leading to' decisions are somehow to do with objectivity.
>> 
>> Best wishes
>> 
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 21 Mar 2010, at 10:07, Alfredo Moscardini wrote:
>> 
>>> I have been following the exchanges on Information closure very carefully and wish to know if my thoughts below are correct.
>>> 
>>> 1 Organisationally closed means that all decision making is internal.
>>> 
>>> 2 Autopoetic entities are structurally coupled with their environment in the sense that changes in the environemnt can ( or may)  trigger changes in the entity and vice versa
>>> 
>>> 3 To enable this to happen, an autopoetic entity has sensors that pck up parameter changes in the environment
>>> 
>>> 4 these are simply data sensors and what is passed from the environment to the entity is simply facts or data - it is not information
>>> 
>>> 5 information is data that has been embued with meaning or purpose which is not needed by the entity - only data
>>> 
>>> 6  So there is information closure but exchange of data
>>> 
>>> Is this a correct interpretation of what has been said - I am particularly interested to know if it fits with Lucs interpretation
>>> 
>>> Alfredo
>>> 
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