Dear Stefan,

I share your puzzlement. I am about to step outside my house, walk about 50 metres down my road and cross a busy road to post a letter. I can't understand how I could survive this experience if there is no information exchange with my environment!

On 18 Mar 2010, at 21:23, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:

I don't see it that way and whether I'm short on concepts, miss the point or maybe right I'll keep searching for an answer to your comments below and why they jar me so.

Perhaps I'll write down my thoughts and post them here for criticism.

On 18 Mar 2010, at 21:01, Luc Hoebeke wrote:

Maturana firmly states: no information exchange. The concept of autopoiesis sees the autonomous system as being alive in a world of disturbances or noise. The system itself selects and gives meaning to this noise. Some years ago I gave a talk at Lancaster University elaborating on the concept of information as a surrogate of meaning. Hayles has well documented the struggle in the Macey conferences about the introduction or the rejection of the concept of meaning. Atlast, meaning was not quantifiable, and information could be put in the Shannon Weaver formula. They said that they did not know what they were measuring, but as it was measurable it could be useful. A bit like IQ.

Think about a fish swimming in data and only making sense of what corresponds to what is meaningful for it. No information streams, only data. Second order cybernetics can do without the concept of information.

Kind regards,

Luc


Op 18-mrt-10, om 20:42 heeft Stefan Wasilewski het volgende geschreven:

Without reading the book I can't, but maybe she's got something wrong or else in her mind.

From my point of view it's wrong as no system can be isolated from its context, autopoietic systems just becomes aware that 'it is' and what it needs to stay that way. This firmly says it must be embedded within a system and communicate whether the information is data, atoms or both.

any help?

On 18 Mar 2010, at 10:56, Roger Duck wrote:

I am puzzling over the following from Katherine Hayles’ book (How we Became Posthuman):
 
P10: “In a sense, autopoiesis turns the cybernetic paradigm inside out. Its central premise – that systems are informationally closed – radically alters the idea of the informational feedback loop, for the loop no longer functions to connect a system to its environment. In the autopoietic view, no information crosses the boundary separating the system from its environment.”
 
Again: “no information crosses the boundary separating the system from its environment.” This is a strong statement! Is it consistent with the VSM view? I tend to think of the loops between S1 and the environment, and even more so between S4 and the environment, as dealing with “finding things out about what is going on out there”. And Stafford’s second and third principles of organisation mention “channels carrying information”.
 
Anyone want to help me though this conceptual jungle?
 
Roger D
 
 
 
Roger Duck
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 Trevor                            [log in to unmask]

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