I am possibly missing the subtleties of this thread, but I think you've highlighted an interesting point, Doug.
This concerns the number of times that discussions (and decisions) are totally constrained by unstated expectations rather than the actual parameters of the event/situation. I am not sure whether - as you say - this is to do with 'habits' as such, Doug. In Kuhnian language it's 'paradigms', in Foucaultian language it's 'episteme'. And the question for myself (whether in terms of effective action or of ethics) is whether an approach (such as cybernetics) can serve to loosen the ties of either paradigmatic of epistemic dynamics.
To be clear about this - it concerns both psychological and psycho-social dynamics. It concerns what one might call the 'unconscious of social thinking'. But I don't think this is to do with psychological dynamics per se (individual), but with social dynamics (capable of sharing - on in Weberian language, empathy).
And I always felt, but floundered, in thinking that cybernetics talks of this space.
On a more down to earth level, the above in effect means that I go along with your point as to the proven viability of banking systems that are not based on the western capitalistic model, and the insanity (social irrationality) of assuming that debt is inevitable,
On 15 Mar 2010, at 20:17, Doug McDavid wrote:
I should probably briefly clarify my original pointer toward Islamic banking. I was partly supporting Trevor in his larger point that various cultural groups have a lot to learn from each other, and that it is too bad that old habits tend to stand in the way of such learnings. But specifically I wanted to make the point that a banking system that is not based on debt can flourish, and seems to be providing a healthy antidote to the predominantly debt (and risk) based systems that have been experiencing such a crisis lately. Aside from incidental cultural factors, it would be no mean feat to marry such diverse currency schemes into a common institutional architecture. It just seems to make sense that mechanisms that encourage investment based on shared risk and reward are ones that encourage real productivity and ameliorate the tendency toward bubble formation.
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Wright, Steve <[log in to unmask]>
Clearing usually involves just a few banks so even if a bank has an ethical policy when it is involved in international clearing, it usually has to go via bigger banking systems. I have spoken with the Co-opís ethical policy bod and was advised that they have to clear many separate ethical issues in terms of accepting any financial commitment or partnership. I am still ken to find new ways East and West could share a common approach to ethical banking but that is probably some way off because of what is perceived as official homo-phobia. So I guess the issue is not just Islamic banking practices which to me seemed well thought through but also existing customers perceptions of the tenets of Islam and the fear that they would react strongly to what is seen as official anti genedder neutral stances adopted by the Co-op. I hope I am wrong about this in the longer run since it would be marvellous if the cynicism people now have about the morality of modern banking practices was translated into a move towards more ethical banking but there appears to be a need for much more dialogue before that could happen.
Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]
] On Behalf Of
15 March 2010 18:22To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: BBC iPlayer - A Brief History of Double Entry Book-keeping Episode 1
I would really like to know what those issues were because I've never heard of them before but I can think of other reasons why Co-op may not was an involvement but just to be sure who are "their" in the text below, Co-op or Islamic banks?
Sent from my iPhone
It is a useful point. I interviewed the Chief Director of a major bank in turkey a year ago about this and he said they had zero exposure to the derivatives crisis. However, their links to the wider world of international clearing banks were more challenging
I was intrigued by the possibility of such banks working with the co-operative bank here in the UK since they are based on ethical policies but hit an immediate glitch. The Co-opís ethical policies potentially clash with those of Islamic banking because of their corporate attitudes to gender which are seen as homo-phobic. Any alignment with an Islamic bank would lose depositors in the UK it was saidÖ.
On 15 Mar 2010, at 10:18, Doug McDavid wrote:
On that point, Trevor, and apropos WoW, etc., it is interesting to see
the results of the following Google search: "financial crisis"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.orgMETAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[log in to unmask]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~