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Just to be clear about this, Alfredo, at any instant 70%  of the input  
into the visual cortex is from sources within the organism itself.

The experience of perception is NOT caused by excitation of one or  
several or a number of individual cells in your eye,

Roger
On 21 Mar 2010, at 12:10, Roger Harnden wrote:

> One can use any word one wants, Alfredo....and  it was me, not Luc  
> who mentioned the tree.
>
> All I am saying that for the human being as a biological organism  
> there are no single datum, there are only data. And we use our  
> powers of investigation to draw marks in the sand, and say 'this is  
> a quark.....that is a human.....this act is evil....etc, etc'. But  
> each of these are just marks in the sand, as both Spencer Brown and  
> Varela indicated.
>
> But that is not a limitation - that is the foundation of human  
> beings and understanding.
>
> If you want to restrict it to visual sensations, Maturana's work on  
> vision is absolutely clear: single sensors are excited and trigger  
> further excitations. The actual sensor has no sensation at all....it  
> is just a switch that is triggered or not triggered. In point of  
> fact the many singularities that bombard our sensors all the time  
> (including our eyes) set up non-stop reverberations into our nervous  
> system. Many (most) of these lead to no sensation (of sight)  
> whatsoever....they just dissipate. It is only upon the triggering of  
> a great number of sensors and their subsequent reverberations and  
> interconnectivity with other reverberations from other sources  
> (including those within the nervous system itself, as cyclical  
> excitations which characterise memory or association), that we get  
> anywhere near something that might be called (and experienced as)  
> the sensation of sight. Hope that helps
>
>
> Roger
>
>
> On 21 Mar 2010, at 11:49, Alfredo Moscardini wrote:
>
>>
>> I am undestanding more and more and also understanding less and  
>> less!!!
>>
>> Luc has brought in a tree.
>>
>> OK I can see that I personally interpret what I see as a tree and  
>> the concept of treeness is absolutely tied to my expeierience and  
>> me.  OK.  What I want to know is what word do we agree to use to  
>> describe the visual sensations impinging on my retina.  I want to  
>> call this data and the changing of this data into the concept '  
>> tree'  is changing this data into information
>>
>> Alfredo
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
>> From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010 11:36 am
>>
>> Subject: Re: Information closure
>>
>>
>> > I omitted relating my previous response to a model such as VSM,
>> > Alfredo:
>> > Yes, Stafford used the concept of organisational closure to
>> > develop
>> > his model, and integrated aspects of other people's work. For
>> > structural coupling, he used variety balancing, but restricting
>> > this
>> > (as you imply) to information and exchange of information. I am
>> > not
>> > sure whether more precise distinctions are important here -
>> > Stafford'sd own definitions are quite to the point - I forget what
>> >
>> > they are in line with the shape of your query, Alfredo. What I am
>> > saying is that many of the points I made in my previous message
>> > don't
>> > matter in terms of understanding VSM. I was answering more  
>> generally.
>> >
>> > So, I''ll go through each of your points:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 21 Mar 2010, at 10:07, Alfredo Moscardini wrote:
>
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