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Lovelock also supports nuclear power which put the cat amongst the  
pigeons with the environmental luvvies :-)

On 11 Nov 2009, at 11:38, Doug McDavid wrote:

> Isn't that Lovelock's latest point?  It's too late to do much about  
> this; better get ready.
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Frank Wood <[log in to unmask] 
> > wrote:
> Barry,
>
> snip:
>> It seems reasonable to do a simple risk analysis: 1. costs of doing  
>> nothing and then being wrong and having a climate catastrophe VS 2.  
>> costs of reducing our carbon footprint and then being wrong that  
>> greenhouse gases are a serious problem. The choice really seems to  
>> be a no brainer.
>
>
> Well this very minute change of attitude from 100% sure that global  
> warming is caused by humans to doing a risk analysis is welcome.
>
> One fatal flaw in your reasoning though,
>
> What if the models that say global warming is caused by man are not  
> complex enough to understand the situation? (That pesky Requisite  
> Variety again!)
>
> Shouldn't we think the unthinkable?
>
> That nothing can be done about global warming because it is a huge  
> cyclical event and therefore unstoppable.
>
> Shouldn't we be instead thinking of adapting civilisations and  
> communities to this global warming? In other words building complex  
> adaptive systems.
>
> Frank
>
>
> On 10 Nov 2009, at 21:06, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>> The oil companies spent $38 million just this last quarter to try  
>> to stop the US senate from voting on the very moderate cap and  
>> trade bill Obama is pushing. The environmentalists do not have a  
>> fraction of this kind of money.
>>
>> The tobacco companies perfected the tactics of obfuscation and  
>> confusion re. the science of smoking and lung cancer and delayed  
>> Federal action for perhaps 20 years by so doing.. This is now well  
>> documented. The oil companies are using the same tactics and are  
>> pouring tens of millions a year into it.
>>
>> We are betting our future and while there are still major  
>> uncertainties, the general conclusion is doubted by few scientists.
>>
>> It seems reasonable to do a simple risk analysis: 1. costs of doing  
>> nothing and then being wrong and having a climate catastrophe VS 2.  
>> costs of reducing our carbon footprint and then being wrong that  
>> greenhouse gases are a serious problem. The choice really seems to  
>> be a no brainer.
>>
>> Barry
>> On Nov 10, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>
>>> Oh Joseph you remind me so much of those Christian fundamentalists.
>>>
>>> Unlike you and your fellow eco fundamentalists I'm not dismissing  
>>> anything, I'm just saying that it's not certain that global  
>>> warming is caused by man. I'm pointing out the slick propaganda  
>>> skills of the environmentalists, Whether they are right to be  
>>> clever marketeers is not the point. I'm just flagging it up that  
>>> they do it.
>>>
>>> Now I must go and do something useful like some research for a  
>>> project I'm doing.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> On 10 Nov 2009, at 19:52, Joseph Truss wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Frank,
>>>>
>>>> If I may riff on your rant…
>>>>
>>>> Your creative cynicism outblasts all evidence and commits you to  
>>>> an untenable position which is nonetheless shared by far too many.
>>>>
>>>> Your outcry of manipulation is aimed in the wrong direction as  
>>>> Barry points out.  Look at who is manipulating the science and  
>>>> for what ends.
>>>>
>>>> If all you see transduces to 'marketing ploy' and all content and  
>>>> meaning evaporate in that filter what are you distinguishing,  
>>>> except what you already believe? Then your category rules and  
>>>> none should attempt to enter!  Or does the marketing ploy filter  
>>>> only come into effect when you are considering the  
>>>> environmentalists?
>>>>
>>>> I copied Russell's response below which corrected the time of the  
>>>> event - the famous Rio summit, and provided some factual  
>>>> information about this precocious child who has turned into an  
>>>> equally articulate and sincere adult whose fears at age 13 become  
>>>> closer to reality day by day.  Is it a slick video or your slick  
>>>> marketing mind? The environmental activist you so summarily  
>>>> dismiss (you seem to have a category of dismissals that is  
>>>> impervious to information and any mention of the category hardens  
>>>> your arteries, your faculties and your very categories!) is David  
>>>> Suzuki and he should at least be granted the credibility of his  
>>>> science and his life long attempts to make the science  
>>>> understandable enough for us to see the impact we puny humans  
>>>> have had and are having on Earth - do you include nuclear weapons  
>>>> and technologies of killingry in your description of 'puny'  
>>>> effects?  Is there anyone you consider credible who is raising  
>>>> the alarm?  Naaa… it's just a marketing ploy!
>>>>
>>>> I fear that your position is far more in style than evidence  
>>>> should dictate and all we can hope for is that denial is just a  
>>>> stage that will pass out of fashion.  But you are right about  
>>>> this - if we care only for ourselves we can afford to do nothing  
>>>> because anything we do now will not stave off what is likely to  
>>>> come in our lifetimes. You think large complex systems only go  
>>>> haywire in the movies? Gaia is pulling a Trudeau and shouting  
>>>> "just watch me!"
>>>>
>>>> What we do today is for the benefit of future generations. For us  
>>>> it is already too late to reverse what we could have 20 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> With kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: rc
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 6:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: the girl who silenced the world for five minutes
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you will find it was David Suzuki's daughter Severn, and  
>>>>> it was at the Rio Earth Summit in 1992.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Raised in Vancouver and Toronto, Severn Cullis-Suzuki has been  
>>>>> camping and hiking all her life. When she was 9 she started the  
>>>>> Environmental Children's Organization (ECO), a small group of  
>>>>> children committed to learning and teaching other kids about  
>>>>> environmental issues. They were successful in many projects  
>>>>> before 1992, when they raised enough money to go to the UN's  
>>>>> Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro. Their aim was to remind the  
>>>>> decision-makers of who their actions or inactions would  
>>>>> ultimately affect. The goal was reached when 12 yr old Severn  
>>>>> closed a Plenary Session with a powerful speech that received a  
>>>>> standing ovation." ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZsDliXzyAY )
>>>>>
>>>>> My reckoning is she must be 29 years old now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember meeting David S. briefly at a university presentation  
>>>>> and book launch around 1998 where he showed this clip. I was  
>>>>> working on a small project for the local zoo and asked him  
>>>>> briefly (as I purchased an autographed copy of the book) whether  
>>>>> he thought zoo's were ethical: responding briefly from  
>>>>> incredible fatigue and jet lag, he thought not. How time flies!
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>> Russell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Frank Wood <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 1:00:56 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: the girl who silenced the world for five minutes
>>>>
>>>> I agree Barry. My main point is that the environmentalists always  
>>>> like to paint themselves as being gooder than good and so on.  
>>>> Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth are massive machines just as  
>>>> the oil corporations etc are and also have hired scientists to  
>>>> argue their case.
>>>>
>>>> I can only quote from the TV series of past "The Greenhouse  
>>>> Conspiracy" which pointed out that it was pretty difficult to get  
>>>> a grant if you were a scientist that was not totally convinced  
>>>> that global warming is caused by man. The whole debate is so one  
>>>> sided. I remember putting up an url or two that from a university  
>>>> website arguing that global warming may be caused by  
>>>> concentrations of water vapour in the atmosphere. The silence  
>>>> here was deafening.
>>>>
>>>> I know of academics who are very uneasy about this one sideness  
>>>> but there's not much point in debating this as the  
>>>> environmentalists have claimed the moral high ground and their  
>>>> propaganda is very powerfu (think of the slick "carbon footprint"  
>>>> campaign)l, I wonder how much money the environmentalists get  
>>>> from those businesses that will profit in seeing reductions made  
>>>> in CO2 and so on?
>>>>
>>>> Yes the issues are complex which means of course *by their very  
>>>> complexity*, we cannot should not be so certain that man has  
>>>> caused or is the sole contributor of global warming. That  
>>>> attitude reeks of anthrocentric arrogance and even worse is the  
>>>> pathetic notion that we, puny humans, can actually change what  
>>>> maybe a cyclic event!
>>>>
>>>> Also how can you trust meteorologists who could not even get  
>>>> their predictions for this summer right! When pressed they said  
>>>> that their predictions had only a chance of 65% likelihood of  
>>>> happening. Fair enough but when it comes to predicting global  
>>>> warming, suddenly there are a lot more certain!
>>>>
>>>> Many environmentalists are like most evangelists, moralisers who  
>>>> get off telling other people what to do.
>>>>
>>>> I just switch off now when they start but unfortunately more and  
>>>> more laws telling us what to do are coming into force.
>>>>
>>>> Ok end of rant. I don't really want to spend time on this but I  
>>>> felt that another viewpoint was necessary on that slick marketing  
>>>> video
>>>>
>>>> With that I withdraw (dis)gracefully from the debate.
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Nov 2009, at 13:57, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Frank,
>>>> >
>>>> > Of course there is money being made. Of course there is self- 
>>>> interest in keeping the campaign going. But you are pointing to  
>>>> miniscule amounts of money on the environmentalist's side and  
>>>> ignoring tons of money on the other side. And what about the self- 
>>>> interest among the oil companies etc. who hire "scientist"  
>>>> shills, run massive ad campaigns, etc to confuse the issues.
>>>> >
>>>> > These issues are massively complex and as far as I can see the  
>>>> environmentalists are largely trying to be honest about it and  
>>>> the large corporate deniers are largely trying to confuse the  
>>>> issue. And don't even try to tell me that the majority of  
>>>> scientists are in it to get grant money. That is an argument  
>>>> based on not understanding the way the academic / scientific  
>>>> world works.
>>>> >
>>>> > Barry
>>>> >
>>>> > On Nov 10, 2009, at 3:51 AM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> No, Barry, it's not being mean spirited. It's an objection of  
>>>> the cynical way these people manipulate people by using a child  
>>>> to get their message across.  The speech was brilliantly crafted  
>>>> to create an emotional reaction. They, like other evangelists are  
>>>> very good at this stuff.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There's big money being made out of the global warming issue  
>>>> and therefore a lot of people have self interest in keeping thee  
>>>> campaign going.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And as for impact. What impact? Very little from what I see.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yes, the fact that she comes from a family of  
>>>> environmentalists is important because this speech was carefully  
>>>> made out to look like a ordinary child speaking in her own words  
>>>> her fears about global warming etc.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And I wonder if she came by an environmentally polluting  
>>>> airplane to the conference?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Frank
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 10 Nov 2009, at 02:37, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Frank,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Of course she had help writing the speech. No one in their  
>>>> right mind, adult or child, addresses such a group without help  
>>>> on their speech. And very probably someone wrote the speech for  
>>>> her.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And of course it is a marketing ploy -- the purpose is  
>>>> clearly to persuade.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And she comes from a family of environmental activists? Is  
>>>> that supposed to somehow devalue the speech?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> None of this in any way takes away from the speech or its  
>>>> impact.  This is clearly a very remarkable child making a very  
>>>> impressive speech.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I do not understand your attempt to belittle her  
>>>> accomplishment in delivering such a speech. it seems a little  
>>>> mean-spirited and unworthy of you.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Barry
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Nov 9, 2009, at 3:09 PM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Ok lets get this into ccntext.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Severn if my web research comes from a family of  
>>>> environmentalist activists.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The speech is very cleverly written and I doubt if it was  
>>>> written by her.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The whole thing is a very shrewd marketing exercise.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Yes I'm cynical but as I've studied marketing a little I  
>>>> know a marketing ploy when I see it.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Frank
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 9 Nov 2009, at 19:31, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> Amazing short video clip of 12 year old addressing the  
>>>> conference at Brazil earlier this year.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Really amazing,
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Roger
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6upL62Pyjo
>>>> >>>>>
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>>>> >>> www.barryclemson.net
>>>> >>> 757-622-6673
>>>> >>> Cybernetica Press Inc
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>>>> >
>>>> > BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>> > www.barryclemson.net
>>>> > 757-622-6673
>>>> > Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>> > Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>> >
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>>
>> BARRY  CLEMSON
>> www.barryclemson.net
>> 757-622-6673
>> Cybernetica Press Inc
>> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>
>>
>>
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> -- 
>
> Doug McDavid
> [log in to unmask]
> 916-549-4600
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