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On 8 Nov 2009, at 23:26, Anja C Reissberg wrote:

> !!
>
> e malama kumu wai
> "protect the source"
>
> ¸.·´ `·.¸¸.·´ `·.¸.·´ `·      º
>
> Anja Reissberg, PhD
> Department of Geography
> University of Hawaii at Manoa
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rc <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009 12:02 am
> Subject: Re: Come on guys! (identity)
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> > In relation to this theme, having just returned from a long  
> absence from the Listserv, please excuse my interruption without  
> reference to the past genesis of this topic.
> >
> > Roger calls out for us ‘guys’ to make an effort. So, here on a  
> Monday morning in the southern hemisphere, the natural time and  
> place for me before I head off to the hamster wheel, I submit the  
> following.
> >
> > My comments relate to my current thinking in this area by virtue  
> of applying the sustainability principles of ‘sense-of-place’.
> >
> > I recently discovered the new emerging field of ‘organisational  
> anthropology’[1] to be of interest and returning to the sources of  
> cybernetics for a research connection to anthropology, found Mead  
> and Bateson’s short triologue with the interviewer, which lead to  
> von Foerster’s views on 2nd-order cybernetics and ethics showing  
> links through to Maturana and his ‘languaging’ school of thinking  
> which has touched the organisational world through the term  
> ‘autopoiesis’. [2]
> >
> > So, in the spirit of S4, and with the technique of S3*, and in  
> respect to my local sense-of-place, I listed to an end-of-week talk  
> by a locally newly arrived professor of innovation.
> >
> > Two things emerged for me: (a) One of his city case studies  
> included Newcastle (UK) which reminded me of Hull Metaphorum 2008);  
> and (b) a later ‘at the bar’ chat where it was revealed the  
> university’s  school of geography was split into two – one half in  
> the physical sciences, and the other half in social, if my memory  
> serves is correct. And yet, geography, like anthropology or biology,  
> must be one of the natural domains for connected thinking grounded  
> on what is ‘out there’ in the landscape (or in this case the  
> cityscape). What hope is there for wholistic thinking when the  
> structures of learning are so disported by corporate thinking and  
> practice?
> >
> > I dropped the words “Hull” and “cybernetics” into the conversation  
> and got no response – in fact negative reactions to the latter  
> (although in an email to Sullivan, reference below, I did not get  
> the same strong –ve reaction which might imply Mead’s work is still  
> alive there?).
> >
> > I also learned that research submissions which are cross- 
> disciplinary now attract a weighting of up to 50% higher that non- 
> cross-disciplinary proposals.  But I got the sense that not many  
> people know how to do it, or want to do so. Is this common?
> >
> > I have only just rejoined, and so I am not familiar with the  
> origins of this thread, but it sound familiar. I’d suggest focus on  
> a ‘market’ (perhaps academia?) and returning to people like Mead and  
> Bateson to review where they were at in defining the term  
> ‘cybernetics’ in the first place. I’m now planning some of my own  
> research around ‘organisational anthropology’ to introduce the  
> cybernetics topic via Mead.
> >
> > It is perhaps a strange coincidence that another female in the  
> history of computing, Grace Cooper in the US Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper 
>  ), was also a key driver in the creation of COBOL as a common  
> business orientated language to conflate the variety of proprietary  
> computer mainframe systems proliferating at the time.  Perhaps it is  
> not so strange that this ‘joining up’ phenomena should emerge  
> through the female line, and there are, it seems, so few represented  
> here and in this field.
> >
> > In any case, I believe many of today’s complex problems can be  
> seen reflected in the pragmatic ICT problems of the US Navy in the  
> 1960s, and that COBOL is an apt metaphor for dealing with emerging  
> complexity. It is about language and languaging: it is about common  
> language and non-elitist languaging. Does anyone else share this  
> view of the systemic and cultural dynamics involved in ‘going  
> forward’ (a phrase from economic that I do not like, but is used  
> without respite today)?
> >
> > In my opinion, there is little hope of making a difference with  
> cybernetics unless these realities are understood. And I believe,  
> understanding ‘humans’ today involves understanding a cyborg-like  
> creature at work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg ). I note, if  
> population projections are accurate then the whole human race  
> appears to be returning, and most will be living in a city landscape  
> and a mental ‘matrix’. [Last night I watched a TV documentary  
> outlining how the global fishing industry is converging en-mass on  
> the tuna in the Pacific ocean – the last fish stocks left having  
> largely cleaned out the other oceans of the world. What are they  
> going to eat? Canada’s cod fisheries collapsed only a decade ago!]
> >
> > Now I have not returned to suggest that Sullivan’s ‘Morris  
> Dancing’ (1) is a good metaphor for current debate on ‘cybernetics’  
> etc, but Sullivan has a point. We should be looking at ourselves  
> collectively as patterns of customs and rituals in order to see  
> better what to do next.
> >
> > I think the ‘purpose’ of any contemporary action related to the  
> continuation of the work of Bateson and Mead and Foerster and others  
> must be defined – and the ‘need’ must be identified. What do we need  
> to do as the planet seems to be on the cusp of a major climate  
> change (human induced or not), and the human race enters a Naven  
> cycle, or at least the need for one? (see 2 below for an outline of  
> the Naven)
> >
> > So, here is the point: a quote from Mead cited in von Foerster “I  
> specifically want to consider the significance of the set of cross- 
> disciplinary ideas which we first called 'feed-back' and then called  
> 'teleological mechanisms' and then called 'cybernetics' -- a form of  
> cross-disciplinary thought which made it possible for members of  
> many disciplines to communicate with each other easily in a language  
> which all could understand.”
> >
> > I suggest a return to consider Mead’s comment: i.e., “. . . a form  
> of cross-disciplinary thought which made it possible for members of  
> many disciplines to communicate with each other easily in a language  
> which all could understand.”
> >
> > Therefore, as one starting point, to accommodate the cultures of  
> academia, especially in their new corporate roles as the incubators  
> of future governance systems operators, I suggest: (a) an acronym;  
> and (b) a common language for communication without the jargon of  
> cybernetic.
> >
> > How about CDCS – cross disciplinary communication system (although  
> I’d consider replacing ‘system’ with framework or another less  
> technically suggestive word) . . .  or even just CDC?
> >
> > It is targeted at academia initially, focused on the real  
> cybernetic issue that Mead identified half a century ago, and has,  
> if my local university case-study anything to go by, a real-world  
> need that is being ‘rewarded’ in the research weighting stakes.
> >
> > It is only one step more to see how structure (such as the  
> splitting of geography into physical and social) inhibits natural,  
> joined up wholistic thinking grounded on sense-of-place: an absolute  
> initial condition for sustainability to emerge imo.
> >
> > As we all sit around wondering how the universe is going to run  
> without casino capitalism, perhaps we should think about producing  
> Stafford Beer’s “Gubernator” as an ethical self-referencing and self  
> governing autopoietic cyborg.
> >
> > I’m heading off to anthropology to study tribes and cultures and  
> Checkland’s “cultural feasibility” – starting with ‘geography’  
> departments and perhaps even some Morris dancing (now that I  
> understand its critical cultural purpose as the ‘jester’ function in  
> the court mirroring the hypnotic prancing of the courtiers)!
> >
> > regards
> > Russell
> >
> > - - -
> > Ref
> >
> > [1] Sullivan (2008), provides a belly laugh with his canny use of  
> the ‘Morris Dance’ as metaphor for modern bureaucratic policy  
> process. Pure cybernetics according to Mead’s perspective I believe  
> – whether one calls it ‘first’ or ‘second order’. See “Bureaucratic  
> Process as Morris Dance: an Ethnographic Approach to the Culture of  
> Bureaucracy in Australian Aboriginal Affairs Administration,  
> Critical Perspectives on International Business”, http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/research/people/sullivan.html
> >
> > [2] see: “For God’s Sake, Margaret, Conversation with Gregory  
> Bateson and Margaret Mead” --  a conversation between Stewart Brand,  
> Gregory Bateson and Margaret Mead and was originally published in  
> the CoEvolutionary Quarterly, June 1976, Issue no. 10, pp. 32-44., http://www.oikos.org/forgod.htm 
>   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoEvolution_Quarterly ).  Von  
> Foerster - http://www.stanford.edu/group/SHR/4-2/text/foerster.html .
>
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Doug McDavid  
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Thanks, Roger.  We may be a ways from *too much* Roger, but thanks  
> for the heads up!
> >
> > This is exactly the right approach, if we can take the time.  What  
> does this emerging enterprise exist to provide into some marketplace  
> in return for something considered to be valuable reciprocity.   
> Valuable reciprocity may be money, or maybe not.
> >
> > Along that line, I have always found (always meaning since mid  
> '80's at Pacific Bell when Allenna did some work there) the VSM to  
> be a particularly valuable tool that I use in an informal, and  
> usually private, way to size up whichever organization I'm dealing  
> with.  I say private because only seldom do I make a presentation to  
> clients in overtly VSM terms.  So, I find myself using the tool, and  
> not so much selling the tool.  So, my point here is that maybe I,  
> and people like me (if any), may be a customer for tools and  
> expertise in using the tools that some people here are positioned to  
> provide.
> >
> > At the same time, I'm personally interested in having an eager  
> market for people that can use tools like the VSM, so that maybe I  
> can provide some of those services (being a consultant type person).
> >
> > Just brainstorming in public.  Hope that's OK.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask] 
> > wrote:
> > Come on, everyone.
>
> >
> > What is needed is a to the point descriptor/label (otherwise,  
> you're all becoming too much like Roger).
> >
> > To tease this to light, the first things is to identify what you  
> want to 'advertise' yourselves as offering.
> >
> > Well - what is that? If we can express that, we can move towards a  
> descriptor,
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8 Nov 2009, at 15:45, Niculae Mihaita wrote:
> >
>> > Dear Professor Doug,
>> > What about Cyber Paradigm Synthesis Scholars or Group
>> > Cyber Synthesis Roundtable Teams
>> >
>> > Niculae
>> From: Doug McDavid <[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:12:25 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Call to action and reflection on the identity the  
>> forum
>> >
>> > You're very welcome to intervene Niculae.  I like the idea of  
>> working with the word synthesis.  Let's see what others think of  
>> these and all suggestions.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> >
>> > Doug
>> >
>> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:08 AM, Niculae Mihaita <[log in to unmask] 
>> >wrote:
>> > Excuse me Sir for intervening,
>> >
>> > but what about The new paradigm: Systems-Actions Synthesis
>> > or The Emergence of Holistic Paradigm and Analytical Paradigm  
>> Synthesis?
>> > or System/Actions Paradigm Synthesis
>> > or Global ...........................................
>> >
>> > Yours sincerely,
>> >
>> > Niculae V. MIHAITA, PhD
>> > University Professor and Research Fellow
>> > Faculty of Cybernetics, Statistics and Economic Informatics in  
>> Bucharest
>> > email: [log in to unmask]
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> > [log in to unmask]
>>
>> >
>> > From: BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:26:17 AM
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: Call to action and reflection on the identity the  
>> forum
>> >
>> > Doug,
>> James Greyson is a very wise and creative systems guy who already  
>> has a presence on WiserEarth and has written some very good papers  
>> for NATO on how we might proceed to deal with the current meta- 
>> crisis. I am Cc'ing him this note. I will also give him a little of  
>> the background in a separate email.
>> >
>> > I don't think that metaphorum is a good name for the proposed  
>> site, but am not sure of a good alternative. I think that we  
>> (systems/cybernetics types) should try to put together a tool-kit  
>> for progressive activists. Initially this would include 1)some key  
>> papers such as Greystones "seven policy switches" and Donella  
>> Meadows article on leverage points and 2) short notes with  
>> references for the VSM, syntegration, Ackoff's Idealized Design, etc.
>> >
>> > I don't have the name for the site, but I personally would like  
>> it to be something like the the following:
>> >
>> > Holistic Tools for Activists, or
>> > Systems Thinking for Saving the World (this is ridiculous, but  
>> maybe points in the right direction), or
>> > Systems Toolkit for Gaia
>> >
>> > I don't really like any of these and perhaps the name is not  
>> critical.
>> >
>> > I think getting started is critical and would urge you forward.
>> >
>> > Barry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Nov 7, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Doug McDavid wrote:
>> >
>>> > Thanks, Barry.  I have now done a bit more investigation.  This  
>>> Wiser Earth service is very feature rick, which can be seen from  
>>> the various different configurations people have set up for  
>>> themselves.  I have looked into a number of communities, and there  
>>> is an expected level of divergence among them, in terms of design  
>>> of their sites, and the amount of activity.  A really good example  
>>> of a seemingly vibrant site/community is the Puget Sound Community  
>>> Change site.
>>> >
>>> > One of the key features is the ability to link to other  
>>> communities, and feature that relationship on the pages for both  
>>> groups.  This would be one mechanism for making this group stand  
>>> out as a sort of meta group -- providing powerful tools and  
>>> thinking frameworks for any domain, and therefore any group that  
>>> sees the value in taking a more systemic and rigorous approach.   
>>> This is not for everyone, naturally, but it seems like it be  
>>> worthwhile to experiment here.  I agree with your conclusion that  
>>> there is not much in the way of systems thinking as a focus for  
>>> the communities on Wiser Earth.
>>> >
>>> > Some of the features that are available for any community include:
>>> > Bulletin Board
>>> > Wiki
>>> > Chat
>>> > Discussions (like forums)
>>> > Upcoming Events
>>> > Participation (Opportunities and Jobs)
>>> > Resources
>>> > Group Membership
>>> > Beneficiaries
>>> > Network navigator (graphic)
>>> > File Libraries
>>> > Search
>>> >
>>> > I would be willing to start up a shell of a community on that  
>>> site.  Would the name be Metaphorum?  I would do this just as  
>>> something for people to look at and envision how to use.  This is  
>>> certainly not to be technology-driven, but to consider the  
>>> advantages of establishing a presence in the midst of all this  
>>> good work.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:31 PM, BARRY A CLEMSON<[log in to unmask] 
>>> > wrote:
>>> > Brief comments follow below
>>>
>>> > Barry
>>> > On Nov 5, 2009, at 12:34 PM, Doug McDavid wrote:
>>> >
>>>> > Hi folks --
>>>> >
>>>> > This is to reply to some of the notes here.
>>>> >
>>>> > I have visited Wiser Earth, and I agree it has a nice look and  
>>>> feel.  It is also large, with 1600 groups already defined.  I  
>>>> think there might be a tradeoff here about working in that venue,  
>>>> where there are probably a lot of like-minded folk, vs. some  
>>>> other social network collaboration site, link Ning, Xing, or  
>>>> LinkedIn.  A lot of this has to do with affordances available in  
>>>> various sites, but it also has to do with social attraction.  Are  
>>>> there any groups that a especially interesting, that you know of  
>>>> Barry?  That we might link to and/or emulate?
>>>
>>> > I think quite a few. Jon Walker (husband to Angela Espinosa) is  
>>> deeply involved with the permaculture movement which he tells me  
>>> is applied systems/cybernetics. The Transitions Movement is  
>>> another one. Both permaculture and Transitions are big movements.  
>>> Coops are also represented as are many movements among indigenous  
>>> peoples. Nonviolence and peace groups are there. Many of these  
>>> groups / movements have a systems orientation although many of  
>>> them seem not to be aware of systems theory / cybernetics. I  
>>> recommend spending a few minutes searching the site for your  
>>> particular interests.
>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I actually think t would be worth checking into Google Wave.   
>>>> This is released to a developer community.  I don't think of  
>>>> myself that way, but I do have an exploratory license.  I had a  
>>>> demo a month or so ago, and it does look like the "wave" of the  
>>>> future.
>>> > I say a 45 minute video on Google Wave and it looks really  
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > As far as virtual Syntegrity, what occurs to me is the ongoing  
>>>> work of Aleco Christakis and Ken Bausch.  They have done  
>>>> distributed facilitation of their problem-solving method, using a  
>>>> tool they have developed for this purpose.  I don't know a lot  
>>>> more than this, though I tried to introduce them into IBM,  
>>>> without notable success.  I think others on this list have more  
>>>> knowledge, including the compatibility of their approach with  
>>>> Team Syntegrity.
>>> > If I remember correctly Christakis worked with John Warfield.  
>>> They developed a group decision process called (I think)  
>>> Interactive Management. As I recall Interactive Management is  
>>> quite effective at pulling together the insights of a diverse  
>>> group relative to ONE complex issue. Thus (again, if I am  
>>> remembering correctly), Interactive Management might be used after  
>>> a problem jostle. I don't think Interactive Management had a  
>>> formal process that corresponds to the problem jostle. Disclaimer:  
>>> I haven't looked at this work for about 15 years and it might have  
>>> changed significantly since.
>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:49 AM, M.J.R. van de Wijnckel<[log in to unmask] 
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> > Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> > 1.
>>>> > Regarding the purpose and identity of Metaphorum I largely  
>>>> agree with what Roger Harnden wrote (see his message @ 31-10).  
>>>> Through the Metaphorum we can support each other in the right  
>>>> direction with our own/joint projects. E.g. With the support of  
>>>> Malik Management we want to launch a Dutch Ecopolicy competition  
>>>> in 2010 for youngsters between 10 & 17 years old. It would help  
>>>> me if you can trigger me with “cybernetic questions” on how to  
>>>> make this competition viable!?
>>>>
>>>> > 2.
>>>> > I do think a new, open source Metaphorum-website would increase  
>>>> our effectiveness and capabilities. E.g. a forum module would  
>>>> make our conversations more focused: I value this list serv, but  
>>>> sometimes there’s too much variety! But also for disseminating  
>>>> “new cybernetic media” we should use this website more (videos,  
>>>> podcasts etc.).
>>>>
>>>> > 3.
>>>> > I would be willing to try “virtual syntegration” with you:  
>>>> again, imagine what we could really do!?
>>>> > A while ago Arthur Dijkstra showed me Google Wave:http://wave.google.com 
>>>>  - Communicate and collaborate in real time???(it will be live  
>>>> somewhere beginning 2010)
>>>> > This could complement the Metaphorum-website as another module.  
>>>> I know there are real Syntegration-experts in this community, so  
>>>> please let us know what you think about it?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Yours,
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Mike van de Wijnckel.
>>>> >
>>>> > Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask] 
>>>> ] Namens BARRY A CLEMSON
>>>> > Verzonden: woensdag 4 november 2009 21:06
>>>> > Aan: [log in to unmask]
>>>> > Onderwerp: Re: Call to action and reflection on the identity  
>>>> the forum
>>>> >
>>>> > Doug,
>>>>
>>>> > 1. After the St. Galens meeting I had hoped that the next step  
>>>> would be a web site that would make it easy for systems  
>>>> scientists to find out about each other's projects. Angela  
>>>> Espinosa worked with Malik on getting the info from that Saturday  
>>>> morning workshop together but I don't know (or maybe just don't  
>>>> remember) what has happened to the information.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Wiser Earth website is a superb tool for perhaps 30,000  
>>>> different progressive projects all over the world. The site is  
>>>> absolutely marvelous and already has a number of projects that  
>>>> systems people are deeply involved in.  I think it would be  
>>>> possible to use that site to make it easy to keep track of the  
>>>> efforts of  any definable group by simply attaching a special key  
>>>> word to the project because they already allow tagging projects  
>>>> with (I believe) essentially unlimited keywords and the site has  
>>>> good search capabilities.
>>>> >
>>>> > 2. I think we desperately need to figure out how to do online  
>>>> group decision making ... sort of the virtual equivalent of  
>>>> syntegration.  So far I don't think we begin to know how to do  
>>>> this.
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't know if either of these interests you, but seems to me  
>>>> both are badly needed ....
>>>> >
>>>> > Barry
>>>> >
>>>> > On Nov 4, 2009, at 10:38 AM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > let's pick up your word 'entanglements' because it resonates  
>>>> across so many fields.
>>>>
>>>> > That's how things really work, the energy of another get's  
>>>> transferred because each are listening and learning from the  
>>>> other but not complicating things because they're doing their own  
>>>> thing! Both benefit!
>>>> >
>>>> > Stefan
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 4 Nov 2009, at 14:10, Doug McDavid wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > That's a good point Barry, and maybe there is value in trying  
>>>> to make these efforts and accomplishments more visible.  People  
>>>> do bring in their individual projects to illustrate these  
>>>> discussions, and that is always enlightening.  But, at the same  
>>>> time there is a difference between "we" as individuals who share  
>>>> a common and interest and "we" as a collective, accomplishing  
>>>> things together.  There seems to be some appetite for trying to  
>>>> be more of the latter.
>>>> >
>>>> > I share that appetite.  I may seem to be a relatively new voice  
>>>> here, but I have been ears here for years (thanks, Leonid).  I  
>>>> have carried your book around (one of the most expensive in my  
>>>> library, by the way! Bu well worth it) and waved it in the faces  
>>>> of visitors to my office, as an accessible explanation of a  
>>>> powerful thinking tool (VSM).  The VSM thought framework is like  
>>>> an item on a heads-up display for me -- always available as a  
>>>> device to peer through at each new interesting social  
>>>> organization that I stumble upon.
>>>> >
>>>> > At the moment, I am almost totally free of organizational  
>>>> entanglements, so I am quite interested in helping to formalize  
>>>> or otherwise encourage any efforts to bolster our collective and  
>>>> individual effectiveness.  Do we want to be an enterprise?  I am  
>>>> something of an enterprise architect.  So I'm happy to pitch in,  
>>>> if there's enough interest.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > Doug
>>>> > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 5:31 AM, BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask] 
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> > That was well put, Joe.
>>>>
>>>> > Given all the evidence that Gaia and human civilization are  
>>>> both in crisis,  this listserve is a critical oasis of sanity and  
>>>> thoughtfulness.
>>>> >
>>>> > As an activist by temperament, I would love to see lots of  
>>>> concrete action coming from the listserve members. However,  we  
>>>> spent a Saturday morning at the Cybernetics of Crisis conference  
>>>> in St Galens just sharing the projects we were involved in.  I  
>>>> was completely blown away by the number and variety of practical  
>>>> projects our members are already engaged in. I now believe that  
>>>> the primary reason we don't see practical projects coming from  
>>>> the listserve is because many, many members of the group are  
>>>> ALREADY deeply, actively committed to changing the world thru a  
>>>> huge variety of projects.
>>>> >
>>>> > Barry
>>>> >
>>>> > On Nov 4, 2009, at 3:23 AM, Joseph Truss wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Indeed Stefan.
>>>> >
>>>> > Deep, insightful, thought provoking, profoundly human  
>>>> conversation (dare I say love?) occurs in this place.  The  
>>>> purpose of a system is what it does.
>>>> >
>>>> > It takes a critical mass of infosettic consciousness to become  
>>>> a stable attractor in which orbit we may choose to self organize  
>>>> into action - or not.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best,
>>>> > Joe
>>>> >
>>>> > Joseph Truss
>>>> > Team Syntegrity International AG/ Metaphorum / Abbey North  
>>>> Drummers
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > From: Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> > Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 6:50:08 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: Call to action and reflection on the identity the  
>>>> forum
>>>> >
>>>> > Speaking personally a broader understanding of the issues,  
>>>> seeing a large group become coherent, friends
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > On 2 Nov 2009, at 20:54, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, greed often overcomes discretion however  even it is  
>>>> usually the social dynamics of an organisation usually finish off  
>>>> any genuine attempt to improve a company.
>>>>
>>>> > In my company I learned very fast not to get credit for  
>>>> anything I did that benefited the company. People who work hard  
>>>> to help their organisation usually get  hunted down and  
>>>> exterminated.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Law of Requisite Variety and POSIWID saved my life. I did a  
>>>> rough VSM because I'm not very au fait with that model but know  
>>>> enough to appreciate its importance as an analytical tool.
>>>> >
>>>> > So I know that Cybernetics delivers the goods but my main  
>>>> question was what hard examples of any action that has come out  
>>>> of all the theorising on *this* listserv?
>>>> >
>>>> > Frank
>>>> >
>>>> > On 2 Nov 2009, at 07:35, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Here's the rub
>>>>
>>>> > If I broadcast what happened in 1998 for Bankers Trust vetted  
>>>> by the FED, SEC and rating agencies I am on open network and I  
>>>> don't know who's listening and their affiliations, but to answer  
>>>> Frank's question in part.
>>>> >
>>>> > I designed Contingent Capital in 1994, used the VSM as a  
>>>> language to parse the bank's business model and placed $1 billion  
>>>> of the product at a time the bank couldn't get traditional  
>>>> capital. Price was not keen but a lot better than traditional  
>>>> method's, the instrument didn't screw up ratios and sent a  
>>>> message to stakeholder's that 'they were good for the money'.
>>>> >
>>>> > When push came to shove the SEC much preferred 'big is best'  
>>>> and so let Deutsche Bank take them over. Now look what's happened!
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm currently drafting the IM again, I've added a lot of the  
>>>> advances in OC to the model and feedback from the market confirms  
>>>> its operation is to support the organisation and makes the market  
>>>> self-regulating, even the G20 says it wants it but doesn't quite  
>>>> know what it is (See G20 publications)
>>>> >
>>>> > So Frank it has been applied, does work, but when Greed  
>>>> Overcomes Discretion even the best products can be marginalised.
>>>> >
>>>> > No slight on friends and this forum but IP is a difficult  
>>>> thing, and I wish to control it for personal and this collective  
>>>> groups advantage until implemented properly.
>>>> >
>>>> > Stefan
>>>> >
>>>> > On 2 Nov 2009, at 01:13, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm afraid I agree with you!
>>>>
>>>> > Barry
>>>> > On Nov 1, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Barry,
>>>> > I'm glad it does. However this is a bit vague and for me, a  
>>>> fictional investor here it does not motivate me to  invest.
>>>> >
>>>> > Frank
>>>> >
>>>> > On 1 Nov 2009, at 22:34, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Frank,
>>>>
>>>> > Nice question.
>>>> >
>>>> > My personal answer is that the discussions here inform my  
>>>> actions in at least two ways:
>>>> >
>>>> > 1) my own understanding is deepened and that deepened  
>>>> understanding then informs the projects I work on
>>>> >
>>>> > 2) these discussions have directly influenced the theme for my  
>>>> next novel, which is very much aimed at changing the world.
>>>> >
>>>> > Barry
>>>> >
>>>> > On Nov 1, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > My response to this discussion is a question.
>>>>
>>>> > Can anyone give me hard examples of any ACTION that has come  
>>>> out of all the theorising, speculation and discussion there has  
>>>> been over the years on this listserv as regards cybernetics,  
>>>> especially VSM. I don't know George Soros but I suspect he might  
>>>> want to see how we have turned theorising into action and more  
>>>> importantly how that action has benefitted the community.
>>>> >
>>>> > I know I keep banging on about this for which I'm totally  
>>>> unapologetic :-)
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards
>>>> >
>>>> > Frank Wood
>>>> >
>>>> > On 31 Oct 2009, at 13:48, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > All,
>>>>
>>>> > Several individuals have at various times expressed their  
>>>> frustration that this forum has not had more impact on the world  
>>>> of action, given the relevance of our ideas to the present global  
>>>> crises (both economic and ecological), and the resonnance of the  
>>>> insights and discourse of systems thinking and VSM with that of  
>>>> certain major players (such as George Soros).
>>>> >
>>>> > Let's reflect a moment on why his might be so, and what (if  
>>>> anything) might be done about it.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I feel there needs to be an understanding of the significance  
>>>> of  the nomenclature of the community from which this forum arose  
>>>> - Metaphorum. This isn't intended to frustrate or deflect  the  
>>>> call to action, but an attempt to release the latent energy that  
>>>> I am sure is inherent in this particular community.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > As has been mentioned before, Listserve was established as a  
>>>> communication space for Metaphorum - a group of individuals who  
>>>> had in one way or another been close to Stafford or involved in  
>>>> his ideas. This group participated in a Syntegration held to  
>>>> celebrate his life and death. Metaphorum emerged from one of the  
>>>> topics generated in the Syntegration, a topic which discussed  
>>>> ways to explain, advance and disseminate Stafford's ideas and  
>>>> cybernetics in general (but with a focus upon managerial  
>>>> cybernetics in particular).
>>>> >
>>>> > The name Metaphorum was chosen deliberately. There is a play on  
>>>> 'metaphor' and on 'forum'. But also upon 'meta'. I think we saw  
>>>> this entity as preserving and advancing the central ideas, but  
>>>> also as generating new understandings and initiatives. - spawning  
>>>> them, as it were. We saw ourselves acting as the proverbial  
>>>> acorn, seeding future ideas and initiatives that we presently (at  
>>>> that time) might not have been aware of. The initiative was very  
>>>> much seen as an opening up rather than a closing down -  a living  
>>>> laboratory or breeding ground to celebrate and launch a  
>>>> particular set of ideas; rather than a mausoleum to simply  
>>>> preserve them.
>>>> >
>>>> > Given that we are all 'normal' human beings (well, more-or- 
>>>> less!), even though we try to think cybernetically and  
>>>> systemically we often find ourselves bedded within the usual  
>>>> constraints and habits of conventional thinking. And, as a  
>>>> community, I think there is a slight schizophrenia between a  
>>>> yearning for self-organisation, and a lurking recognition that in  
>>>> the social domain self-organisation is seldom enough alone., in  
>>>> questions such as 'What are we going to do?', and 'How are we  
>>>> going to do it?'.
>>>> >
>>>> > And, my point is that the 'meta' of the name of this community  
>>>> (or nexus of communities), surely legitimises this through  
>>>> turning a tendency towards schizophrena into a healthful paradox  
>>>> (wafter all, the paradox lis central to cybernetic thinking). For  
>>>> instance, I personally enjoy sliding in and out of being overly  
>>>> intellectual, or else pursue flights of fancy in exploring and  
>>>> pursuing ideas. But this does not mean that I want everyone else  
>>>> to do the same thing, or feel that this forum should focus upon  
>>>> this. Rather, I would love the forum to evolve along its 'meta'  
>>>> lines' by providing both the person skills and resources for  
>>>> concrete projects, AND and theoretical underpinning for projects  
>>>> and initiatives. In other words to allow flights of fancy  
>>>> together with demand for application to co-existence in parallel,  
>>>> thence generating further synergy.
>>>> >
>>>> > I know I tend to get bogged down by these details in a perhaps  
>>>> over-intellectual way (as oppose to 'getting on with things'),  
>>>> but  perhaps these issues need to be visible, rather than lurking  
>>>> as a blind spot. Thus, under the umbrella of 'meta' we might  
>>>> progress both the 'reflective' and the 'practical', and gain a  
>>>> better understand how these things work off one another. Some of  
>>>> us, after all, are more ''men' of action', some of us more ''men'  
>>>> of reflection', but surely all of us are a bit of both. But our  
>>>> commonality in this forum, is to do with the a loose sharing (or  
>>>> overlap) of a mindset. As history manifestly reminds us, few  
>>>> people are equally reflective and practical. There are obvious  
>>>> exceptions, and Stafford indeed lived both sorts of identity -  
>>>> reflection and action. But this Listserve is perhaps not itself a  
>>>> precursor to action nor to reflection, but rather a space that  
>>>> might generate reflection and action, at various times and for  
>>>> various purposes, itself acting as a launch pad rather than venue  
>>>> for such initiatives. Does that make sense?
>>>> >
>>>> > And this would be a good thing.....a metaphorum.......But  
>>>> perhaps this means that its own effectiveness is as a space that  
>>>> enables synergy, interaction and thattriggers (rather than  
>>>> carries out) further initiatives [whether commercial projects, co- 
>>>> writing papers of books, social events (such as conferences]).  
>>>> And as long as we accept this (provided we do) it should be able  
>>>> to provide both functions for different people at different  
>>>> times......
>>>> >
>>>> > Mind, I do think that in order to effectively carry out such a  
>>>> dual function, the matter of protocols is important (as has been  
>>>> mentioned before);. That will help all we different and varied  
>>>> individuals with our different and various agenda's, to  
>>>> experience synergy rather the unpleasant sensation of stepping on  
>>>> each other's toes.
>>>> >
>>>> > Anyway, that's how I see it, folks.
>>>> >
>>>> > Roger
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>> > www.barryclemson.net
>>>> > 757-622-6673
>>>> > Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>> > Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>> > www.barryclemson.net
>>>> > 757-622-6673
>>>> > Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>> > Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada  
>>>> Messenger for the Web BETA  
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>>>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>> > www.barryclemson.net
>>>> > 757-622-6673
>>>> > Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>> > Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
>>>> > Doug McDavid
>>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>>> > 916-549-4600
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>> > www.barryclemson.net
>>>> > 757-622-6673
>>>> > Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>> > Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
>>>> > Doug McDavid
>>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>>> > 916-549-4600
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> >
>>> > BARRY  CLEMSON
>>> > www.barryclemson.net
>>> > 757-622-6673
>>> > Cybernetica Press Inc
>>> > Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> > Doug McDavid
>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>> > 916-549-4600
>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> >
>> > BARRY  CLEMSON
>> > www.barryclemson.net
>> > 757-622-6673
>> > Cybernetica Press Inc
>> > Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org 
>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Doug McDavid
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> > 916-549-4600
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Doug McDavid
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 916-549-4600
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: www.metaphorum.orgFor the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~