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Yes, greed often overcomes discretion however  even it is usually the  
social dynamics of an organisation usually finish off any genuine  
attempt to improve a company.

In my company I learned very fast not to get credit for anything I did  
that benefited the company. People who work hard to help their  
organisation usually get  hunted down and exterminated.

The Law of Requisite Variety and POSIWID saved my life. I did a rough  
VSM because I'm not very au fait with that model but know enough to  
appreciate its importance as an analytical tool.

So I know that Cybernetics delivers the goods but my main question was  
what hard examples of any action that has come out of all the  
theorising on *this* listserv?

Frank

On 2 Nov 2009, at 07:35, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:

> Here's the rub
>
> If I broadcast what happened in 1998 for Bankers Trust vetted by the  
> FED, SEC and rating agencies I am on open network and I don't know  
> who's listening and their affiliations, but to answer Frank's  
> question in part.
>
> I designed Contingent Capital in 1994, used the VSM as a language to  
> parse the bank's business model and placed $1 billion of the product  
> at a time the bank couldn't get traditional capital. Price was not  
> keen but a lot better than traditional method's, the instrument  
> didn't screw up ratios and sent a message to stakeholder's that  
> 'they were good for the money'.
>
> When push came to shove the SEC much preferred 'big is best' and so  
> let Deutsche Bank take them over. Now look what's happened!
>
> I'm currently drafting the IM again, I've added a lot of the  
> advances in OC to the model and feedback from the market confirms  
> its operation is to support the organisation and makes the market  
> self-regulating, even the G20 says it wants it but doesn't quite  
> know what it is (See G20 publications)
>
> So Frank it has been applied, does work, but when Greed Overcomes  
> Discretion even the best products can be marginalised.
>
> No slight on friends and this forum but IP is a difficult thing, and  
> I wish to control it for personal and this collective groups  
> advantage until implemented properly.
>
> Stefan
>
> On 2 Nov 2009, at 01:13, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid I agree with you!
>>
>> Barry
>> On Nov 1, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Barry,
>>> I'm glad it does. However this is a bit vague and for me, a  
>>> fictional investor here it does not motivate me to  invest.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> On 1 Nov 2009, at 22:34, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank,
>>>>
>>>> Nice question.
>>>>
>>>> My personal answer is that the discussions here inform my actions  
>>>> in at least two ways:
>>>>
>>>> 1) my own understanding is deepened and that deepened  
>>>> understanding then informs the projects I work on
>>>>
>>>> 2) these discussions have directly influenced the theme for my  
>>>> next novel, which is very much aimed at changing the world.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 1, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My response to this discussion is a question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone give me hard examples of any ACTION that has come out  
>>>>> of all the theorising, speculation and discussion there has been  
>>>>> over the years on this listserv as regards cybernetics,  
>>>>> especially VSM. I don't know George Soros but I suspect he might  
>>>>> want to see how we have turned theorising into action and more  
>>>>> importantly how that action has benefitted the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know I keep banging on about this for which I'm totally  
>>>>> unapologetic :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank Wood
>>>>>
>>>>> On 31 Oct 2009, at 13:48, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Several individuals have at various times expressed their  
>>>>>> frustration that this forum has not had more impact on the  
>>>>>> world of action, given the relevance of our ideas to the  
>>>>>> present global crises (both economic and ecological), and the  
>>>>>> resonnance of the insights and discourse of systems thinking  
>>>>>> and VSM with that of certain major players (such as George  
>>>>>> Soros).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's reflect a moment on why his might be so, and what (if  
>>>>>> anything) might be done about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel there needs to be an understanding of the significance  
>>>>>> of  the nomenclature of the community from which this forum  
>>>>>> arose - Metaphorum. This isn't intended to frustrate or  
>>>>>> deflect  the call to action, but an attempt to release the  
>>>>>> latent energy that I am sure is inherent in this particular  
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As has been mentioned before, Listserve was established as a  
>>>>>> communication space for Metaphorum - a group of individuals who  
>>>>>> had in one way or another been close to Stafford or involved in  
>>>>>> his ideas. This group participated in a Syntegration held to  
>>>>>> celebrate his life and death. Metaphorum emerged from one of  
>>>>>> the topics generated in the Syntegration, a topic which  
>>>>>> discussed ways to explain, advance and disseminate Stafford's  
>>>>>> ideas and cybernetics in general (but with a focus upon  
>>>>>> managerial cybernetics in particular).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The name Metaphorum was chosen deliberately. There is a play on  
>>>>>> 'metaphor' and on 'forum'. But also upon 'meta'. I think we saw  
>>>>>> this entity as preserving and advancing the central ideas, but  
>>>>>> also as generating new understandings and initiatives. -  
>>>>>> spawning them, as it were. We saw ourselves acting as the  
>>>>>> proverbial acorn, seeding future ideas and initiatives that we  
>>>>>> presently (at that time) might not have been aware of. The  
>>>>>> initiative was very much seen as an opening up rather than a  
>>>>>> closing down -  a living laboratory or breeding ground to  
>>>>>> celebrate and launch a particular set of ideas; rather than a  
>>>>>> mausoleum to simply preserve them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that we are all 'normal' human beings (well, more-or- 
>>>>>> less!), even though we try to think cybernetically and  
>>>>>> systemically we often find ourselves bedded within the usual  
>>>>>> constraints and habits of conventional thinking. And, as a  
>>>>>> community, I think there is a slight schizophrenia between a  
>>>>>> yearning for self-organisation, and a lurking recognition that  
>>>>>> in the social domain self-organisation is seldom enough alone.,  
>>>>>> in questions such as 'What are we going to do?', and 'How are  
>>>>>> we going to do it?'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, my point is that the 'meta' of the name of this community  
>>>>>> (or nexus of communities), surely legitimises this through  
>>>>>> turning a tendency towards schizophrena into a healthful  
>>>>>> paradox (wafter all, the paradox lis central to cybernetic  
>>>>>> thinking). For instance, I personally enjoy sliding in and out  
>>>>>> of being overly intellectual, or else pursue flights of fancy  
>>>>>> in exploring and pursuing ideas. But this does not mean that I  
>>>>>> want everyone else to do the same thing, or feel that this  
>>>>>> forum should focus upon this. Rather, I would love the forum to  
>>>>>> evolve along its 'meta' lines' by providing both the person  
>>>>>> skills and resources for concrete projects, AND and theoretical  
>>>>>> underpinning for projects and initiatives. In other words to  
>>>>>> allow flights of fancy together with demand for application to  
>>>>>> co-existence in parallel, thence generating further synergy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I tend to get bogged down by these details in a perhaps  
>>>>>> over-intellectual way (as oppose to 'getting on with things'),  
>>>>>> but  perhaps these issues need to be visible, rather than  
>>>>>> lurking as a blind spot. Thus, under the umbrella of 'meta' we  
>>>>>> might progress both the 'reflective' and the 'practical', and  
>>>>>> gain a better understand how these things work off one another.  
>>>>>> Some of us, after all, are more ''men' of action', some of us  
>>>>>> more ''men' of reflection', but surely all of us are a bit of  
>>>>>> both. But our commonality in this forum, is to do with the a  
>>>>>> loose sharing (or overlap) of a mindset. As history manifestly  
>>>>>> reminds us, few people are equally reflective and practical.  
>>>>>> There are obvious exceptions, and Stafford indeed lived both  
>>>>>> sorts of identity - reflection and action. But this Listserve  
>>>>>> is perhaps not itself a precursor to action nor to reflection,  
>>>>>> but rather a space that might generate reflection and action,  
>>>>>> at various times and for various purposes, itself acting as a  
>>>>>> launch pad rather than venue for such initiatives. Does that  
>>>>>> make sense?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And this would be a good thing.....a metaphorum.......But  
>>>>>> perhaps this means that its own effectiveness is as a space  
>>>>>> that enables synergy, interaction and that triggers (rather  
>>>>>> than carries out) further initiatives [whether commercial  
>>>>>> projects, co-writing papers of books, social events (such as  
>>>>>> conferences]). And as long as we accept this (provided we do)  
>>>>>> it should be able to provide both functions for different  
>>>>>> people at different times......
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mind, I do think that in order to effectively carry out such a  
>>>>>> dual function, the matter of protocols is important (as has  
>>>>>> been mentioned before);. That will help all we different and  
>>>>>> varied individuals with our different and various agenda's, to  
>>>>>> experience synergy rather the unpleasant sensation of stepping  
>>>>>> on each other's toes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, that's how I see it, folks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the  
>>>>>> Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the  
>>>>> Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>> www.barryclemson.net
>>>> 757-622-6673
>>>> Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>>>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> BARRY  CLEMSON
>> www.barryclemson.net
>> 757-622-6673
>> Cybernetica Press Inc
>> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~