Hi Barry,
I'm glad it does. However this is a bit vague and for me, a fictional  
investor here it does not motivate me to  invest.


On 1 Nov 2009, at 22:34, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:

> Frank,
> Nice question.
> My personal answer is that the discussions here inform my actions in  
> at least two ways:
> 1) my own understanding is deepened and that deepened understanding  
> then informs the projects I work on
> 2) these discussions have directly influenced the theme for my next  
> novel, which is very much aimed at changing the world.
> Barry
> On Nov 1, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Frank Wood wrote:
>> My response to this discussion is a question.
>> Can anyone give me hard examples of any ACTION that has come out of  
>> all the theorising, speculation and discussion there has been over  
>> the years on this listserv as regards cybernetics, especially VSM.  
>> I don't know George Soros but I suspect he might want to see how we  
>> have turned theorising into action and more importantly how that  
>> action has benefitted the community.
>> I know I keep banging on about this for which I'm totally  
>> unapologetic :-)
>> Regards
>> Frank Wood
>> On 31 Oct 2009, at 13:48, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>> All,
>>> Several individuals have at various times expressed their  
>>> frustration that this forum has not had more impact on the world  
>>> of action, given the relevance of our ideas to the present global  
>>> crises (both economic and ecological), and the resonnance of the  
>>> insights and discourse of systems thinking and VSM with that of  
>>> certain major players (such as George Soros).
>>> Let's reflect a moment on why his might be so, and what (if  
>>> anything) might be done about it.
>>> I feel there needs to be an understanding of the significance of   
>>> the nomenclature of the community from which this forum arose -  
>>> Metaphorum. This isn't intended to frustrate or deflect  the call  
>>> to action, but an attempt to release the latent energy that I am  
>>> sure is inherent in this particular community.
>>> As has been mentioned before, Listserve was established as a  
>>> communication space for Metaphorum - a group of individuals who  
>>> had in one way or another been close to Stafford or involved in  
>>> his ideas. This group participated in a Syntegration held to  
>>> celebrate his life and death. Metaphorum emerged from one of the  
>>> topics generated in the Syntegration, a topic which discussed ways  
>>> to explain, advance and disseminate Stafford's ideas and  
>>> cybernetics in general (but with a focus upon managerial  
>>> cybernetics in particular).
>>> The name Metaphorum was chosen deliberately. There is a play on  
>>> 'metaphor' and on 'forum'. But also upon 'meta'. I think we saw  
>>> this entity as preserving and advancing the central ideas, but  
>>> also as generating new understandings and initiatives. - spawning  
>>> them, as it were. We saw ourselves acting as the proverbial acorn,  
>>> seeding future ideas and initiatives that we presently (at that  
>>> time) might not have been aware of. The initiative was very much  
>>> seen as an opening up rather than a closing down -  a living  
>>> laboratory or breeding ground to celebrate and launch a particular  
>>> set of ideas; rather than a mausoleum to simply preserve them.
>>> Given that we are all 'normal' human beings (well, more-or-less!),  
>>> even though we try to think cybernetically and systemically we  
>>> often find ourselves bedded within the usual constraints and  
>>> habits of conventional thinking. And, as a community, I think  
>>> there is a slight schizophrenia between a yearning for self- 
>>> organisation, and a lurking recognition that in the social domain  
>>> self-organisation is seldom enough alone., in questions such as  
>>> 'What are we going to do?', and 'How are we going to do it?'.
>>> And, my point is that the 'meta' of the name of this community (or  
>>> nexus of communities), surely legitimises this through turning a  
>>> tendency towards schizophrena into a healthful paradox (wafter  
>>> all, the paradox lis central to cybernetic thinking). For  
>>> instance, I personally enjoy sliding in and out of being overly  
>>> intellectual, or else pursue flights of fancy in exploring and  
>>> pursuing ideas. But this does not mean that I want everyone else  
>>> to do the same thing, or feel that this forum should focus upon  
>>> this. Rather, I would love the forum to evolve along its 'meta'  
>>> lines' by providing both the person skills and resources for  
>>> concrete projects, AND and theoretical underpinning for projects  
>>> and initiatives. In other words to allow flights of fancy together  
>>> with demand for application to co-existence in parallel, thence  
>>> generating further synergy.
>>> I know I tend to get bogged down by these details in a perhaps  
>>> over-intellectual way (as oppose to 'getting on with things'),  
>>> but  perhaps these issues need to be visible, rather than lurking  
>>> as a blind spot. Thus, under the umbrella of 'meta' we might  
>>> progress both the 'reflective' and the 'practical', and gain a  
>>> better understand how these things work off one another. Some of  
>>> us, after all, are more ''men' of action', some of us more ''men'  
>>> of reflection', but surely all of us are a bit of both. But our  
>>> commonality in this forum, is to do with the a loose sharing (or  
>>> overlap) of a mindset. As history manifestly reminds us, few  
>>> people are equally reflective and practical. There are obvious  
>>> exceptions, and Stafford indeed lived both sorts of identity -  
>>> reflection and action. But this Listserve is perhaps not itself a  
>>> precursor to action nor to reflection, but rather a space that  
>>> might generate reflection and action, at various times and for  
>>> various purposes, itself acting as a launch pad rather than venue  
>>> for such initiatives. Does that make sense?
>>> And this would be a good thing.....a metaphorum.......But perhaps  
>>> this means that its own effectiveness is as a space that enables  
>>> synergy, interaction and that triggers (rather than carries out)  
>>> further initiatives [whether commercial projects, co-writing  
>>> papers of books, social events (such as conferences]). And as long  
>>> as we accept this (provided we do) it should be able to provide  
>>> both functions for different people at different times......
>>> Mind, I do think that in order to effectively carry out such a  
>>> dual function, the matter of protocols is important (as has been  
>>> mentioned before);. That will help all we different and varied  
>>> individuals with our different and various agenda's, to experience  
>>> synergy rather the unpleasant sensation of stepping on each  
>>> other's toes.
>>> Anyway, that's how I see it, folks.
>>> Roger
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>>> more information go to: For the Metaphorum  
>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more information go to: For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 757-622-6673
> Cybernetica Press Inc
> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: For the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For more information go to:

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -