Hi,

Why not find someone at an university and ask students to do it. Those are the people we need to include in our activities for multiple reasons.

It is a nice topic for a Bsc.

 

Rgds

Arthur

Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Stefan Wasilewski
Verzonden: maandag 8 december 2008 23:58
Aan: [log in to unmask]
Onderwerp: Re: Viable Economy #3

 

Joe

 

My skills with this stuff is minimal, it's all in my head and your shorthand takes a lot for me to think through.

 

I'm also at the edge of my understanding because I'm not doing this stuff 24/7 but 5/24 at best.

 

Let me think of what you're doing or, if possible translate to plain speak and then I'll get through it.

 

Stefan

 

On 8 Dec 2008, at 18:23, Joseph Truss wrote:



Nick, Stefan,

 

To add to my last post:  I have just physically modelled collapsing an icosahedron with one orthogonal set removed (one of the three rings of the Borromean configuration), which makes a 'vector equilibrium' or 'vector flexor' in Bucky terms, this maintains the 12 nodes of the original icosahedron, but in an expanded sphere where the radius is now equal to an edge length. Depending on the angle of twist from 90 to 360 degrees, in 1 or 2 twists that brings the polar opposite torus nodes together, the object is collapsed into a 2-frequency flat triangle, a final twist and the object folds up its outside triangles to become a tetrahedron, in the physical model, each edge now has 4 struts.  To count - we start with 30 edges of the icosahedron, we remove 6 edges (one orthogonal set) leaving 24.  Through the other transforms nothing else is removed, so at the end we have a tetrahedron with 6 edges each of 4 struts = 24. The original 12 nodes are now nested 3 each in each node of the tetrahedron.

 

Then a question emerges:  in the absence of the third linking ring, what keeps the other two rings of the Borromean set from flying apart? In the icosahedron, not until the removal of a second orthogonal set will the model separate into 2 halves. In a Small Form Syntegration, these two halves are connected by the critic lines.

 

Stefan can you model something like this with 3DSmax?  I'm without my Mac Tower temporarily and using a PC to get on here.  I won't be able to get the s/w right away and then I have to learn it!

 

Thank you both for tripping my 4-D bio-circuits again... and again...

 

Abrazos,

Joe


 

Nick, Stefan,

 

A polyhedron sphere requires only 4 colours to map any number of boundaries without any colour having to be neighbour to itself (the 4-colour map problem).  A torus requires 7 colours to meet the same condition.  Do you know of Arthur Young (inventor of the Bell helicopter) and his theory of 7's ? Stafford mentions this in Beyond Dispute. Anyway, in terms of group coherence, a form of dependency, 7 is a limit beyond which a group will divide.  In enneagram terms, 7 is the divisor that produces the infinitely recurring sequence 142857 of the six-pointed star. Divide any whole number not a factor of 7 by 7 and you will get this sequence - starting at a different place depending on which whole number you divide. I'm not sure and don't have time to check right now but I believe that the C-60 molecule which appears naturally in space requires a 1/7 atmospheric pressure to self-fabricate on earth.  The torus is the breathing mechanism of the icosahedron, which is why polar opposite nodes are never directly connected.  By connecting up the 2-away-from nodes internally (syntegration critic lines) the stellated dodecahedron is automatically formed hanging from the nodes of the icosahedron, repeat the procedure from the dodecahedron and you will form another icosahedron inside and so on to infinity - these movements take place around the six polar opposite toruses (torii?).  I haven't thought about the effect of twisting the torus twice - an application of inside/out torque - a double reversal ??  a reflected enantiomorph ?? does handed-ness matter to a torus ?

 

Always so good to hear from you Nick and I hope you will share more of what you are up to with us here.  I'd love to know if Pask ever came across the enneagram and if he did what he thought of it. 
 

Thanks,

 

Joseph Truss
Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity AG

 

 


From: Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 8:16:42 AM
Subject: Re: Viable Economy #3

Xmas drinkies, Stefan? Good O!

Physics, Stefan? Had no idea. Pask says you need a doubly twisted torus to model analogy, which is the nature of dependence. What does this mean? Well along comes John Williamson http://www.cybsoc.org/cybcon2008prog.htm#jw and puts a large enough photon on a doubly twisted torus and makes it into an electron. Me deafened by the noise of pennies dropping. John (ex CERN, ex Philips nanotech, now at Glasgow U and currently talking give it away millions) is understandably intrigued by Pask and me telling him he has a process theory or a General Theory of Coherence. But dealing with the flips and ramifications of the spin calculus involved (ab initio carving out of rock) is shall we say somewhat taxing... Anyway my team is currently dissipated doing mobile phones, activity based accounting and music manuscript recognition so I'm up for it and somehow I have to introduce him to VSM and a mobile phone that makes pancakes (George Carlin "Everybody has a mobile phone that makes pancakes so what do I care?" Well they don't George but a nanotech mobile phone that makes stuff: bread and water, antibiotics etc might be rather useful...) John enjoys his physics and is an impressive speaker (as you can see, above) so apart from the exciting focussed things going on here exciting times. Hope to see you soon.

----- Original Message -----

From: [log in to unmask]">Stefan Wasilewski

Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:11 AM

Subject: Re: Viable Economy #3

 

Ah, you see Nick, the moment your back is turned someone changes the world again!

 

See you soon for some Xmas cheer!

 

Stefan

 

On 8 Dec 2008, at 00:16, Nick Green wrote:



 

Stefan : Can you see what I'd like to develop?

 

How about?

 

A sort of coloured throbbing thing that shows flows and exceptions which you can click and see graphs of output. VRML perspective controls all beautifully lit and rendered. Kind of "Software Millieu" as in Platform for Change but with actual world village institutions. Basically a zoomable map of world processes and their interconnections which you can interrogate which is eventually updated in real time. And, of course, 5433*2 data for every graph describing a S1 product flow?

 

(I must get out more..seem to having been missing a lot of good stuff lately. It's this theoretical physics thing. One of the guys -respectable- has a handle on the energy problem- that's apart from revolutionising wave mechanics, and, without knowing it, using a Pask cybernetic model to do so).

 

But we need that performance data. Private and Public sectors, Labs everything: raw data all in a certificated notarised repository. We need to know what is going on, lead with real data, not forecasts based on patchy dodgy estimates (remember GIGO?). Now capitalism has failed and rational consumerism, people power, could dominate, after all it's our money these idiots are after...

 

So one step at a time, my sisters and brothers, or should that be many steps all at the same time? Time to plan and chose a number between one and many for the first step of the Plan.

----- Original Message -----

From: [log in to unmask]">Stefan Wasilewski

Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:57 PM

Subject: Re: Viable Economy #3

 

I know Arthur.

 

I've got 3DSMax, Vue, Lightwave and more, had Blender but XSI7.0 has a Node based programming language that allows you to create virtually anything including recursive structures and it uses 4-D where you can establish boundaries both in 3D and 4D.

 

The node are mathematical, can create virtually anything and all you need is a map!

 

Can you see what I'd like to develop?

 

Stefan

 

 

On 7 Dec 2008, at 21:11, Arthur Dijkstra wrote:



Stefan,

What would you like to develop ?

If you want to develop a 3D environment you can also consider http://www.blender.org/ That one is free and multiplatform.

rgds

Arthur

Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Stefan Wasilewski
Verzonden: zondag 7 december 2008 21:54
Aan: 
[log in to unmask]
Onderwerp: Re: Viable Economy #3

Download a working version of XSI 7 with ICE technology Joe. It's a Autodesk package now but is billed under its originator's name Softimage (Canadian I think).

ICE is a Node based system that allows the construction of so much. Tell me what you think.

Stefan

On 7 Dec 2008, at 20:44, Joseph Truss wrote:

 

Dear Barry,

I too am up for this.  I am not a technical VSM diagnostician and have never consulted using it although I have pretty good technical knowledge about it (helped along by my model building of it in 3-D using 4 spatial dimensions) and know enough about its applicability to help wherever I can.  I probably know as much as anyone about Team Syntegrity (Stafford's theory) and Syntegration (the protocol) and would be happy to help mount a 3-4 homeostatic syntegration for the system in focus. I have some S3 experience from previous management roles including TSI but it is all small stuff.  My heart is with Roger - although my brain is constantly racing to keep up - and I would be a far more productive and desirable element in S4 (also any opportunity to hang with Roger!)

Carpentry as a form of warriorship has a long tradition - does it not?
 

Joseph Truss
Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity AG


From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
To: 
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 4:42:48 AM
Subject: Re: Viable Economy #3

I am up for this, Barry, but as you have no doubt noted, and Javier stated, my primary value is probably as a subset of S4 (definitely NOT sales or marketing), a sort of internal critic, gadfly, and, perhaps, intellectual authority. But, what you are outlining requires in the first instance the consolidation of a S3/S1 function.

Roger


On 5 Dec 2008, at 15:55, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:

> This is my third rant about developing a cybernetically sound regulatory system for the global economy. For the sake of brevity, I am going to make some straightforward assertions, without much in the way of qualifying comments. Please consider all of this as tentative and my challenge to you to improve upon it.
> 
> OUR GOALS:
> 1) Every national government in the world should have a "Council of Systemic Advisors", similar to the existing Council of Economic Advisors.
> 
> In the US we also have a Science Advisor to the President, but there is no one charged with explicitly thinking about systemic issues. A Council of Systemic Advisors would, in the long run, have an enormous impact on government policies and on the university and the roles of cybernetics/systems within the university (which in turn would feed back for more impact on government and corporations).
> 
> 2) We need Obama and his team of economic advisors to be aware of and receptive to the cybernetic community's insights re. regulation in complex systems.
> 
> To achieve goal #2, we do not need a fully developed design for regulating the global economy What we need to begin are a few well chosen demonstrations of where cybernetics would dramatically improve on the current economic thinking that led to the current crisis. At the risk of revealing my abysmal ignorance about economics and the stock market, i will suggest that the current system is largely a positive feedback loop with "speculator expectations" as the  key level (to use Forrester's system dynamics language). If this is even close to correct, then the system is GUARANTEED  to engage in wild swings and ultimately collapse. Regardless of the correctness of my example, I think what we need to get our ideas on the table is a few such examples of systemic alternatives to grossly inadequate designs.
> 
> STRATEGY
> 1) We need a group focused on developing the examples of where cybernetic thinking would dramatically improve upon current orthodoxy. Hopefully there are at least a few of our number who understand a little about economics and maybe can do this fairly quickly.
> 
> 2) Obama is certainly the most important player right now, but other nations should not be ignored. And getting to the government of one country might well make it easier to get to the government of other countries. Thus, we should all work on our own national governments (and, where possible, help each other). Thus we need a group focused on how to get the attention of the national decision makers.
> 
> 3) This is much bigger than just management cybernetics. We need to enlist every system thinker in the world. (NOTE: I am now really going to reveal the ignorance resulting from spending most of the last ten years as a carpenter and ignoring the academic world, but perhaps i can still make the point). We need to enlist and ally with groups such as System Dynamics, Society for General System Theory (I know, it transmogrified into a different group but I don't remember the new name), and the organizational learning folks such as Peter Senge who emphasize systems thinking. Undoubtedly there are many others I don't know about.
> 
> NEXT STEPS
> 1) We need to know who is interested and willing to work on this project. Step right up and volunteer. Indicate:
> - your country
> - sketch of your background, what you bring to the table, how you see yourself helping.
> 
> 2) A dedicated forum, listserve or some such. Some of you are much more knowledgeable than I about what we need to support the project.
> 
> 3) Refinement of the goals and strategies. Clearly a serious discussion has to refine these before we can do much else.
> 
> 4) Think carefully about what other system scientists we can drag into this project. Go ahead and recruit those you can. Make lists of those you think might be useful but that you don't have personal connections with.
> 
> A NOTE ON ME
> I spent eight years teaching admin. in colleges of education, then ten years in in  teaching engineering management. I was then forced out of the university for failing at TV teaching. I also had careers in software development (mostly with very large systems) and community development. The last ten years I mostly built additions to homes and recently became a novelist (discovered fiction is a hell of a lot harder than technical writing!). All this is by way of saying that I will have zero credibility with government decision makers and that quite obviously someone else is going to have to be the public face for this project. This might not be an issue, it might well be that the best public face for the project will become obvious as we proceed. On the other hand, I often think of Thomas Jefferson's comment that any politician who wants the job is thereby disqualified because he will then make decisions our of a context of preserving his position instead of a context of the common good. So this is something to keep in the back of your mind as we proceed.
> 
> PARTING SHOT
> This obviously can only be done if a group of us step up to do it. Now is the time! And you are the One! Take one step forward if you are willing to help save the world ....
> 
> Grace and Peace,
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What i have not yet seen is any large number of people explicitly volunteering to do much about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ===================================================
> 
> BARRY A CLEMSON
> 
[log in to unmask]
> 
> 757-692-6673
> 
> Cybernetica Press at 
www.cyberneticapress.com
> 
> 
> 
> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do small things with great love."
>            --- Mother Teresa ---
> 
> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>  --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
> 
> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>      -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
> 
> 
> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>          -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> 
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