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Ha its a real question sure enough but it crosses two interlocking
issues, ethics and efficacy. None of us would I hope be willing to
enforce a totalitarian model of control since we have a moral imperative
to build only systems as if people mattered.

Nevertheless, the organised knowledge to create the Guantanam techniques
was absed on this premise and came from the UK, specifically Northern
ireland where methods were evolved to attempt to break selected
internees within a few days. The hooding, white noise, dogs, being
dropped out of hovering heliocpters five feet above the ground, mocj
executions, use of drugs, beating to soften up, stoika positions, sleep
deprivation and boiler suit and goggles our ours - the techniques were
designed to mimic sensory deprivation...

But the holy grail of interrogation - confession without tell tale marks
to reveal how much prisoners were abused was not reached even though
most of these priosners were permanently damaged. But even if it had, we
were not dealing with a closed system here - information leaked out,
violence increased, more people had to be interred...So purely from a
mechamistic amoral perspective metaphorum members would not touch it
because the system was dysfunctional in bringing about the opposite of
its intended functionality. Put the two feedback loops together on
ethics and efficacy and we would/should whistleblow....

In the wider world however, we can anticipate little learning about such
factors has been achieved and when the next security crisis/ crackdown
emerges - anticipate more of the same via information exchange and
training exchanges through security assistance programmes...say in
India/Pakistan or both.....

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of BARRY A
CLEMSON
Sent: 04 December 2008 17:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE


I certainly hope the members of this community would not accept that  
job. If they did, I would immediately remove myself.

Barry
On Dec 4, 2008, at 11:11 AM, Roger Harnden wrote:

> This follows an interaction with Allenna,
>
> Models may well be neutral, but social systems aren't. Some are
> geared to torture individuals prior to any legal process in places  
> like Guatanamo Bay; others are geared to support the vulnerable.  
> These two social forms are DIFFERENT and loaded with VALUES.
>
> From the standpoint of the US administration (as is made clear from
> the very recent confessions of the ex-interrogator), a 'more  
> effective' Guatanamo Bay would process the captives in  way that  
> helps deliver to the US administration its requirement to justify  
> the rape a sovereign country n the pursuit of its own economic and  
> political advantage. And, should one of us have been so 'lucky' as  
> to be approached by the then US administration, i am sure we could  
> readily apply the VSM to achieve that goal.
>
> Therefore, might we not ask 'Is there any reason why the members of
> this community (Metaphorum) would not accept that job?'
>
> Well, is there?????
>
> Roger
>
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===================================================

BARRY A CLEMSON
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757-692-6673

Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com



"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
small things with great love."
             --- Mother Teresa ---

The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--


"An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --

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