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Arthur:

May I suggest an Ishikawa diagram (called the fish bone because of its  
shape) used in total quality control to identifiy the essential  
variables of a flight. As far as I have read about airplane accidents  
on of the key "variables" turn out to be the pilot being in some kind  
of a hurry. It just happened in a plane crash in Mexico. (Where  
interior secretary Mouriņo was killed) So the suggestion is to  
identify the various components plane, pilot, crew, passengers,  
control tower, etc. and then show a list of "things that have gone  
wrong in the past" plus a brainstorm of the "things that could go  
wrong not previously experienced" and link these lists with the  
"fishbone diagram" containing the different agent and machinery and  
computers involved.

Perhaps this idea is of some use.

Javier Livas

On Dec 4, 2008, at 8:33 AM, Roger Harnden wrote:

> Yes, I have no conflict with what Barry says.
>
> This is how conversation should co-evolve learning. Domains of  
> ennunciated reality that maintain their own integrity, but also  
> maintain through their BRAIDING continued consensual interactions.
>
> Thanks, Barry
>
> Roger
> On 4 Dec 2008, at 13:52, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>
>> Espejo might be better able to address the point I will try to  
>> make. For the Chilean project, the workers defined rather simple  
>> flow models of the their shops and factories. They also defined the  
>> EV to be monitored. They of course did all this without any  
>> sophisticated understanding of the very important and very deep  
>> points Roger made below. What they did have was a feel for how to  
>> do their work and what it meant for that work to be in control or  
>> out of control. Because of their long experience with the work  
>> itself, they were able to very quickly define an adequate and  
>> useful set of EVs. Please note that i am not saying that they  
>> defined a set of "true" EVs, just that they were useful.
>>
>> Barry
>> On Dec 4, 2008, at 7:51 AM, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>
>>> Arthur, I'm very aware of the danger of confusing this issue, but  
>>> i do find it difficult to restrain myself. And, unfortunately for  
>>> others (online), I am working from home at present.
>>>
>>> I believe Stafford covers this in Decision and Control, and as  
>>> Barry says, his view resonnates with Ashby.
>>>
>>> I believe that Essential Variables are equivalent to what Maturana  
>>> calls 'organisation'. Organisation is that set of components and  
>>> relations by which a system is recognised as the system it was. It  
>>> is a subset of what he and Varela call structure. Structure (which  
>>> Ashby did not cover) at any instant is all the components through  
>>> which a given organisation is realised as a given organisation,  
>>> even though the structural configurations are changing all the  
>>> time. In other words, organisation is an abstraction (though very  
>>> very real) whereas structure is concrete - is that which we in  
>>> point of fact amterial interact with. Organisation is the play of  
>>> MIND. structure is the natural flow of phenomenal interaction.This  
>>> is spelled out quite succinctly in The Tree Of Knowledge, and  
>>> unless anyone says otherwise, I think is isomorphic with, but  
>>> extends beyond, Ashby's findings.
>>>
>>> Mind never deals with structure. It's unique, emergent property is  
>>> to indicate invariant qualities in the ever changing flux, and  
>>> abstract, through a recursive procedure well documented by  
>>> Maturana, the raw matter of taxonomies. classification,  
>>> identification etc etc.
>>>
>>> Organisation (or EV) is observer-defined. It is the material of  
>>> concepts, thought, reflection and foresight. It has nothing 9but  
>>> everything) to do with phenomenal reality (which - remember  
>>> Wittgenstein 'is as it is' [which of course gets us nowhere, and  
>>> is not meant to get us nowhere, because, as human beings we are  
>>> observers, and what we observe are organisation).
>>>
>>> This is all tied up with 'a system is what it does' in the  
>>> understanding that it does nothing in the absence of an observer  
>>> from the perspective of whose intentionality what it does can be  
>>> indicated and distinguished (Spencer Brown, Varela).
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> On 4 Dec 2008, at 12:17, Arthur Dijkstra wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> To continue on this concept of EV's, what methodology do we use  
>>>> to define
>>>> EV's? How do we differentciate between variables and Essential  
>>>> variables ?
>>>> How do we apply this concept of EV's ?
>>>>
>>>> If we take a flight as an viable system (VS). We could discuss  
>>>> whether
>>>> 'airspeed' is an EV. Speed is controlled by engine thrust and  
>>>> vertical
>>>> speed. Vertical speed is controlled by pitch attitude. Pitch  
>>>> attitude is
>>>> controlled by the angle of attack of the horizontal stabilizer  
>>>> which is
>>>> controlled by the auto pilot) pilot, etc, etc.  Nominating all  
>>>> these
>>>> variables as EV's doesn't seem useful.
>>>> You see what I am getting at, where do we start and where do we  
>>>> stop ?
>>>>
>>>> Your remarks on this S3 topic are appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Arthur
>>>>
>>>> Nb Next to come are controllability of EV's and the limits of EV's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>>>> Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens BARRY A CLEMSON
>>>> Verzonden: 03 December 2008 17:50
>>>> Aan: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Onderwerp: Re: Essential Variables
>>>>
>>>> Arthur,
>>>>
>>>> I believe Stafford and Ashby were totally in agreement on EV.
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember offhand where to find Stafford's discussions of EV
>>>> but I am pretty sure both Brain and Heart talk about them.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Arthur Dijkstra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I qualify for an S3, quoting Barry:
>>>>> "To get anywhere with academic types, we need to work with those  
>>>>> who
>>>>> meet
>>>>> two criteria:
>>>>> 1) they don't have competing approaches of their own (this rules  
>>>>> out
>>>>> all the
>>>>> business schools, public administration, and educational
>>>>> administration
>>>>> programs)
>>>>> 2) they are interested in solving practical problems of great
>>>>> complexity"
>>>>>
>>>>> My question is about Essential Variables (EV). As you know I am
>>>>> developing a
>>>>> safety management system based on the VSM. Safety will be  
>>>>> nominated
>>>>> an EV.
>>>>> I have no direct access over all my Stafford books right now (out
>>>>> flying on
>>>>> layover) but I was surprised not to find EV in the index of The  
>>>>> Heart.
>>>>> How and where does Stafford clearly talk about EV's ? Does he  
>>>>> agree
>>>>> with
>>>>> Ashby about EV's ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Arthur
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>
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>>>> www.platformforchange.org
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ===================================================
>>>>
>>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>> 757-692-6673
>>>>
>>>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do
>>>> small things with great love."
>>>>          --- Mother Teresa ---
>>>>
>>>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>>> --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>>>
>>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>>>     -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>>>>         -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
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>>>>
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
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>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
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>>
>>
>>
>> ===================================================
>>
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 757-692-6673
>>
>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
>> small things with great love."
>>           --- Mother Teresa ---
>>
>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>  --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>
>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>      -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>
>>
>> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>>          -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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