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Stefan, yes that's useful.

I think that the only reason there might appear to be a trend away  
from the VSM - at least on the wiki - is that presently only I and a  
couple of others are doing the writing, and my personal focus is only  
partially the VSM. Hence, my contribution might be tending to skew  
things.

That is easily rectified by those primarily interested in the VSM  
contributing.

As it is, on the wiki I AM trying to make links from other thinkers  
that I believe have relevance for deeper understanding of the VSM, and  
I do think that an understanding of the VS,M is relevant for all the  
other things that Metaphorum would seek to do.

Roger

PS I gather you are back from Canada??
On 1 Dec 2008, at 23:50, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:

> Stefan,
>
> I hope you keep talking because I find many of your posts very  
> interesting.
>
> Barry
>
> On Dec 1, 2008, at 6:13 PM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>
>> Very much interested but there's a lot of noise going on and a  
>> trend away from VSM that's worrying.
>>
>> Not interested in Snowden, have reviewed his stuff along with the  
>> comments made over the last few weeks that show Stafford had  
>> anticipated much of it.
>>
>> The problem we all have is WE know this stuff but the rest of the  
>> world doesn't. We need to synthesise!
>>
>> There must be small steps away from existing paradigms that make  
>> sense to the listener and where we can guide them gradually to a  
>> higher level of interest in Systems.
>>
>> Just a thought, but what the heck, no-one seems to listen anyway,  
>> hence my silence!
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>> On 1 Dec 2008, at 22:41, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>
>>> Everyone,
>>>
>>> I, like all of you, am an individual. Metaphorum is a place for  
>>> individuals to dip their toes in and out of.
>>>
>>> It does a certain job - which for those who are just dipping their  
>>> toes in and out of is fine. But for others who want to progress  
>>> ideas/thinking/understanding might be different.
>>>
>>> I wish to progress ideas, collaboration, connectivity. And I value  
>>> the core ides of SB (as well as others, whom I consider as  
>>> important for an understanding of  Stafford),
>>>
>>> We have set up a wiki space around these apparently core ideas.  
>>> Are people interested in this? Or is it of no interest? I know  
>>> some peple are interested, but how about you others?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, the more findings come out about Web 2.0 and 3.0  
>>> the more it becomes apparent that the potential is in statistical- 
>>> scale usages. And we are a VERY SMALL COMMUNITY. The problem with  
>>> that, is that psychological factors (nervousness, frustration,  
>>> irritation....) dominate, whereas in a very large scale on-line  
>>> community these factors take second place.
>>>
>>> This isn't a moan. but I wondered whether anyone else had any  
>>> thoughts?
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> ===================================================
>
> BARRY A CLEMSON
> [log in to unmask]
>
> 757-692-6673
>
> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>
>
>
> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
> small things with great love."
>            --- Mother Teresa ---
>
> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>   --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>
> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>       -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>
>
> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>           -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~