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Hi Leonid,
I'm tempted too to think we are in some ways progressing. Nonetheless at a 
granular level we humans seem to repeat our mistakes. That connisseur of 
human behaviour, Shakespeare, covered most human foibles.

Sadly we seemed to have learned nothing since he wrote about them.

We have progressed in technology but I wonder if our minds are able to deal 
with the increased complexity. Judging from my experiences in organisational 
dynamics I would say no. We still have an attitude that is very territorial 
in organisations so we have not evolved much in that way.

Regards

Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leonid Ototsky" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Selling Cybernetics to Business and Managers


Frank,
Thanks for the "Straw Dogs" reference.
From my point of view there are some good thoughts and
some wrong thoughts in this book. The good ones are that humans are just
another species and we cannot control our destiny. The wrong ones are that
there is no such thing as progress. Every biologist knows that there is
progress in evolution, that most recent developments are most advanced.
This is the theory of Severtsov and Shmalhauzen (in Russia). The progress
is in the increased complexity and functional repertoire of organisms.
Human history also shows examples of progressive social evolution. It's
not all straight-forward, but the trend is obvious. Human society is far
from being ideal but it is better than it was.
Suppose the VSM is "a Progress Oriented" too .

Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it

> Dear Leonid,
> yes businesses should be aware of those global problems that impact on
> them.
> However I'm a bit wary of the missionary zeal that is becoming apparent on
> this list as regards "changing the world".
>
> I'm suspicous of the visionary trap and many brilliant thinkers succumb to
> it. I'll read book x and think wow this is good stuff, however many times
> the book is marred by the ending chapter(s) describing the author's vision
> for a better world.
>
> For those that feel that might be susceptible to this, I recommend John
> Gray's "Straw Dogs" a brilliant polemic on (I suppose) Humanism..
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straw-Dogs-Thoughts-Humans-Animals/dp/1862075964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228782266&sr=1-1
>
> I agree with you that the bottom up approach is best. I'd be tempted to
> work
> at the lowest level and see what emerges, rather than try and change
> global
> insitutions directly.
>
> Regards
>
> Frank
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Leonid Ototsky" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Selling Cybernetics to Business and Managers
>
>
> Dear Frank,
> Suppose the time has come for business people to understand global
> problems which may effect them . It is not only global financial problems
> but many others (look at my presentation to the WOSC-2008
>  - http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/wosc2008v2.pdf ).
> Suppose it will be good to PR the VSM as a foundation for solving their
> ndividual problems through the more Global VSM approach -
> http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/vsm/
>
> Best Regards,
> Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>
>>
>> Dear Everyone,
>> How do we package Cybernetics in order to make it appealing to business
>> people?
>>
>> For a start maybe replacing the word "Cybernetics" with a more snappy
>> word
>> might be a good start.
>>
>> For many people the word "cybernetics" conjures up psychopathic robots
>> bent on world domination. Hardly the word to use when selling control
>> and
>> communication systems. Unless there can be found a way to make the word
>> "cybernetics" cool.
>>
>> I'll leave it at that for the moment.
>>
>> I'm going to cut back on posts to this list as I want to concentrate on
>> the Wikkispace. The aim there for me is to attract business managers and
>> others who are interested in the concepts of Cybernetics.
>>
>> Any ideas or comments on how we can sell Cybernetics would be much
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank Wood
>>
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