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Harold,

I do not believe that Stafford failed in applying the VSM to society.  
In the case of Chile in particular the project only lasted 18 months  
before the coup and had some notable successes in that short time. And  
the coup was instigated and funded by the CIA and was unrelated to the  
work Stafford did. Also, Stafford did some very interesting work with  
Canadian Indian tribes.

IMHO, the VSM applies very well to governments and societies. The VSM  
is a framework for viability, not for corporations or any other  
particular form of entity.

You do raise a good question tho, "Where doesn't Stafford's work  
apply?" The answer to this depends upon which aspects of the work: The  
VSM doesn't say much about the process of planning, but Syntegration  
does. Neither Syntegration nor the VSM say much about how one tries to  
understand the inner workings of some complex process, but Decision  
and Control does in the sections on modeling. Staffords work provides  
very powerful tools for an immense range of situations and purposes.

Having said that, i also think that there are other critical tools/ 
frameworks that need to be used. For instance, Ackoff's idealized  
planning is a critically important methodology. And Ackoff's circular  
organization is a way to make large organizations both more effective  
and more democratic. Further, both idealized planning (as a VSM system  
4 methodology) and the circular organization (as a way of organizing a  
corporation or government entity) are completely compatible with the  
VSM. I don't know of anyone ever trying this, but I have thought for  
years that the circular organization would be a management structure  
that would facilitate the use of the VSM.

Barry

On Dec 2, 2008, at 2:36 AM, Garderen, Harold van wrote:

> Like many others that responded thus far, I'm interested and try to do
> some collaborative work at time.
>
> One thing worries me and that is the - at times - almost
> fundamentalistic focus on Stafford. A few questions:
>
> * Where doesn't Staffords work apply?
> * What progress have other made in the meantime.
> * What of that work can we integrate to make more VSM ideas readable  
> in
> todays terms.
> * Isn't VSM used outside its validity boundaries when applied to  
> society
> (Stafford failed there)
>
> And the most vital one:
>
> * How do we achieve 200,000+ page views a day on the wiki?
>
> One suggestion: find better names (and use them) for S1-S5. Nobody  
> will
> understand that for a long, long time.
>
> This work is in dear need of newbies. So go and wiki!
>
> Harold
>
> Now blogging at http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Roger Harnden
>> Sent: maandag 1 december 2008 23:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: is there anyone out there????
>>
>> Is anyone interested in the wiki??? I know the few who are,
>> but how about others?? Or is it just not of interest; is it a
>> pile of shit; is it irrelevant to other people's needs; is it
>> difficult to engage in??????
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Roger
>>
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===================================================

BARRY A CLEMSON
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757-692-6673

Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com



"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
small things with great love."
             --- Mother Teresa ---

The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--


"An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --

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For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
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