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I am on several mailing lists of progressive groups, including  
Obama's, and have recently been getting the "opportunity" to vote on  
ideas for the new administration. Everyone of these has, in my mind  
been a waste of time.

The choices I am offered all seem to be what some one person suggested  
and, it somehow (I don't understand how) percolated up to become one  
of the finalists. Further, all the other finalists are similar / or  
variations on the same theme. Further, these ideas are presented  
without any sort of context and without any sense of how the various  
alternatives might relate to the overall problematique of the world.

This is by way of saying that we badly need some mechanism for  
structuring our policy discussions within the political arena. Clearly  
Team Syntegrity would solve this problem, but is there anything we  
could do in the interim to improve on what we now have? While there  
are clearly drawbacks to some small group organizing the suggestions,  
what is being done now is IMHO worthless.

Wikipedia seems to do this well for technical areas and for assembling  
facts on some topic. We need a "wikipedia" for political discourse.

Barry

On Dec 24, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Joseph Truss wrote:

> Thanks Barry,
>
> It seems to me that two approaches to mechanisms that sift /  
> evaluate / analyze etc. are:
>
> 1)  Strong Artificial Intelligence with genetic programming and  
> smart robot avatars cruising the web, etc. or
>
> 2)  Filters that are probability tuned to each person in the  
> population of users - eg as Stafford described a matrix of everyone  
> mapped against everyone else with each designating a desirability/ 
> probability of receiving messages from another and information is  
> shared in the whole group according to the overall probability  
> settings. So if I have Roger set at 100, I will receive all of  
> Roger's posts, if I change that number to 50, I receive on average  
> one out of every two of his posts.   One cannot assign zero  
> probability to anything as this prevents learning and the  
> information is distributed redundantly across the whole population.   
> An aspect of Redundancy of Potential Command.
>
> In our Metaphorum case, at present our matrix would have all cells  
> at 100 percent thanks to the Listserv.  As we grow we will be unable  
> to keep this up and by then maybe we will have a way to filter our  
> incomings, as part of a population where the information is not lost  
> to the group just because there is no capacity to receive it.
>
> Both of these schemes would benefit from TS architecture.
>
> All the best for the season to all of you and yours.
>
> Joe
>
> From: BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:36:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Where the web is taking us
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you are absolutely right about the potential for Team  
> Syntegrity. How we get there is of course the question. In the  
> meantime, I expect to see some attempts to develop web-based  
> mechanisms to sift thru / evaluate / analyze opinions and produce  
> some "validated" ideas.
>
> Barry
>
> Barry
> On Dec 23, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Joseph Truss wrote:
>
>> Thanks Barry,
>>
>> It sounds like another call for a design of a web-based platform  
>> for participatory democracy.
>>
>> Team Syntegrity architecture is still unparalleled for designing  
>> variety engineered spaces.  Imagine a 'world forum space' where  
>> Statements of Importance are posted within a fully collaborative  
>> social network navigation space that is a fractal icosahedron, that  
>> is each emerging topic that comes out of a plexus of players forms  
>> a virtual syntegration, and each syntegration topic could spin off  
>> its own syntegration.
>>
>> The whole system is interconnected to the various levels of  
>> recursion of citizen, syntegration, pollsters, industry, think- 
>> tanks, up to the highest governance level who are receiving not  
>> 1,000 items from 30 voices but 12 focused statements useful to  
>> policy and decision making from each infoset.
>>
>> The navigation interface could be user selected to match their own  
>> context / metaphors, for instance the entire domain is the earth  
>> with major 'regions' and geographical subsets, or the domain is a  
>> country within which you can find different architectural  
>> structures, or the domain is my house and I can find objects that  
>> are familiar to me, my desk, workshop, kitchen cabinet, storage  
>> containers, etc - every level of recursion and its subsets  
>> represents the overall conversation content, syntegration plexuses,  
>> topic categories, and so on.
>>
>> I suggested in an earlier post a Metaphorum project proposal to  
>> design the 'participatory democracy' platform as above and embed it  
>> in its place in a VSM model as a way to explain the concepts of  
>> viability and further to get funding from any agency, foundation,  
>> university, etc.  that is interested in participative, democratic  
>> methods and technologies that enrich and maintain the feedback   
>> loops between 'governance for the people' and 'governance by the  
>> people'.
>>
>> Allenna, Chris and I met Tad Homer-Dixon  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Homer-Dixon 
>> ) and 3 years ago we talked about an initiative he was considering  
>> when he was at University of Toronto to develop an open source  
>> software based problem solving process / technology.  Tad has since  
>> published his latest book 'the Upside of Down' and is now at  
>> University of Waterloo.  We haven't communicated since about the  
>> UofT initiative.
>>
>> I think there is a high probability that there will be available  
>> funding somewhere for something like what I'm proposing,  but it  
>> would take a big effort on all of our parts to focus on this one  
>> idea and develop a convincing proposal.
>>
>> I appreciate that there have been a number of appeals, including  
>> yours, to get some critical mass around a common project.  If  
>> Nick's proposal to Google is accepted I imagine that might be the  
>> focus and that would be fine.
>>
>> We do know that this is where the web is taking us - where will we  
>> take the web?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>> From: BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:05:11 AM
>> Subject: Where the web is taking us
>>
>> There is an excellent article in Salon on where the web is taking  
>> us and the sort of tools needed to move from a web of free-floating  
>> opinion to a web of reasoned discourse and useful conclusions.
>>
>> http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2008/12/23/david_brin_google/?source=newsletter
>>
>> Barry
>> ===================================================
>>
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 757-692-6673
>>
>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
>> small things with great love."
>>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>>
>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>   --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>
>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>       -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>
>>
>> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>>           -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
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>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>
>> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and  
>> bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
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>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
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>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> ===================================================
>
> BARRY A CLEMSON
> [log in to unmask]
>
> 757-692-6673
>
> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>
>
>
> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
> small things with great love."
>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>
> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>
> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>
>
> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!  
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



===================================================

BARRY A CLEMSON
[log in to unmask]

757-692-6673

Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com



"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
small things with great love."
             --- Mother Teresa ---

The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--


"An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~