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Luc, I think you have clearly described in a very down-to-earth way  
one particular value of the VSM and systems thinking in actual use,

Roger

On 12 Dec 2008, at 22:17, Luc Hoebeke wrote:

> Dear Harold,
>
> Quite interesting case. Reading your description, I get the  
> impression that you think about VSM as having to model the  
> restaurant business. The strength of the VSM is that you can focus  
> on the system in focus and make a model to be able to act in your  
> described complexity.
> Talking about recursion levels: the question is how autonomously do  
> the restaurants operate and what are the emerging characteristics  
> (essential variables) of what you call the chain. Rarely emergent  
> characteristics correspond to the sum of characteristics of  
> individual restaurants. Furthermore if the chain has more than 10  
> restaurants, you always statistically will find out that about 20%  
> are performing poorly in relation to the 80% others (statistical law  
> of Pareto). Pareto discovered an emerging characteristic of  
> interdependent systems.
> I don't think it is essential to work on the subsystem level of one  
> restaurant. The interdependencies due to the clients requirements of  
> the processes in the kitchen and in the restaurant are too intense  
> to look at them from a separate recursion level. You know my opinion  
> of span of relations which are manageable.
> Remember that each restaurant shall have its own essential  
> variables, which always are contextual, and as previously mentioned  
> from the CYBERSYN experience, are best defined by those actors  
> living them day to day. Probably that many of the problems which the  
> chain owner is confronted with are due to the fact that he thinks  
> that he has to manage 10 or more homogeneous restaurants, in this  
> way trying to reduce the horiontal variety, needed for each  
> restaurant to cope with its own environment.
> If he measures the performance of the restaurant only with  
> quantitative, monetary measures, he is comparing apples with lemons:  
> if performance is sourness, you know where the poor performers will  
> be found.
> A good discussion with your friend and what he is confronted with  
> could take place, without mentioning to him the VSM, but based upon  
> the insights of the VSM to ask him relevant questions which help him  
> to reframe the issues he is confronted with by a systemic perspective.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Luc
>
>
> Op 12-dec-08, om 20:22 heeft Garderen, Harold van het volgende  
> geschreven:
>
>> Roger (and all),
>>
>> Thanks for your kind words. But I find it hard to get the '60s and  
>> '70s into 21st. For example ....
>>
>> A friend of mine has a chain of restaurants, most do well but two  
>> are underperforming. We had a discussion yesterday on VSM and  
>> ofcourse I mentioned that VSM is a diagnotic tool used for such  
>> situations: don't touch what works, try to fix the two that are  
>> broken, one at a time.
>>
>> But ooh, that ain't easy. Kitchen with chef, personnel, purchasing  
>> according to season, ingredient-stock, order coming in, wine-cave,  
>> etc. How to diagnose the kitchen of a restaurant? Next the dining  
>> area: waiters, menu, bar, tables, people waiting to be seated,  
>> groups calling in, money coming in, orders, deliveries, etc, etc,.  
>> I guess there are two VSM's on the lowest level: kitchen and dining  
>> room that form the lowest recursion level. Next level is "the  
>> restaurant"? Paychecks, markteting, maintenance budget
>>
>> Knowing that my friend has a chain probably the next recursion  
>> level is the chain?
>>
>> I was thinking .... isn't that a good case to describe for  
>> "businessmen of the 21st century"?  Anybody in the list ever done  
>> this?
>>
>> Harold
>>
>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask] 
>> ] On Behalf Of Roger Harnden
>> Sent: vrijdag 12 december 2008 16:18
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: informative Blog
>>
>> Harold, you are absolutely on target. For it to become 21st  
>> century, it has to BE 21st century - in the presentation of ideas  
>> and images used, in the language, and in its modes of expression.
>>
>> Roger
>> On 12 Dec 2008, at 13:36, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Roger,
>>>
>>> You are right, succesrate are low, but on the other hand, with 30  
>>> people one can do a lot.
>>>
>>> A colleage of mine started his blog over a year ago and now has a  
>>> reader list of >70 of people all over the world he didn't know  
>>> before.
>>>
>>> I would love the VSM community to make more use of publicly  
>>> visible platforms to improve the chance that more people discover.
>>>
>>> For that use of mundane language is needed. I'm not happy with my  
>>> own blog in that respect.
>>>
>>> Harold
>>>
>>> Now blogging at http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask] 
>>> ] On Behalf Of Roger Harnden
>>> Sent: vrijdag 12 december 2008 14:10
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: informative Blog
>>>
>>> Yes, I can see, Harold
>>>
>>> However as you and I both know from the literature (Weinberger,  
>>> Tapscott, Shirky and others), though potential visibiity and  
>>> audience is huge, actual success is pretty dismal.
>>>
>>> I think the main thing is to hang on in there, and gradually get  
>>> linked to a wider and wider, but sometimes focused, audience.  
>>> However, Harold, it surely does get frustrating talking to  
>>> oneself!!!
>>>
>>> Mind, I think I prefer this mode of expression to monologue  
>>> authorship. At least here, there is a sort of reality check, or  
>>> even contribution/dislocation whihc can be creative. Whereas  
>>> traditional authorship didn't have such safety vales,
>>>
>>> Roger
>>> On 12 Dec 2008, at 12:54, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Roger,
>>>>
>>>> I can do with some visitors and lots of comments to react on:-)  
>>>> Current traffic is at 1 a day (googles daily check). So I'm  
>>>> writing to myself.
>>>>
>>>> What I'm trying to do is raise interest in Beer c.s., + OL  
>>>> (Wenger c.s.) and Sense-making (Snowden c.s) in the hope to  
>>>> attract an active crowd to work with.
>>>>
>>>> Harold
>>>>
>>>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask] 
>>>> ] On Behalf Of Roger Harnden
>>>> Sent: vrijdag 12 december 2008 13:46
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: informative Blog
>>>>
>>>> Harold's blog. Well worth a look,
>>>>
>>>> Roger
>>>>
>>>> http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12 Dec 2008, at 12:00, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Roger,
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you write the Quaterly?
>>>>>
>>>>> Harold
>>>>>
>>>>> Now blogging at http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Modeling Emergent Structure
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very to the point, Harold,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger
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