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I think Roger you've gone through some bad Karma.

You know I only met Stafford once, it didn't amount to much at the  
lunch table but our conversation in the evening was not about  
cybernetics but Mankind and who we are, where we're from. There was no  
conclusion but a deep understanding and respect: we resonated. For  
whom the respect? Mankind, its brilliance, terribleness and future;  
for it has one, one that lies within our collective love.

I was raised with no dogma, just love, when I was asked to go to  
Catholic school, prior to my fathers death when I was 9, I did so out  
of respect but asked them a simple question: 'If God so loves us why  
does he let us do the things we do?' It took years of answering  
another question, 'Why me? for his death, but I came to a conclusion  
(it may change) that , if he (God) is out there, then we (Mankind)  
have come to a bridgehead that, like any caring parent knows, we must  
take the journey alone in order to truly understand what it means to  
be Human, have Freedom, be positively creative in this Universe and  
smile in saying I understand.

The conversation herein the listserv is like my 'Why me?'. Debating,  
asking are we alone? Well we're not, 'for there are more things in  
this Universe than in your philosophy Horatio!' and with a little  
positive thought we will make it, one small step at a time until we  
stand upright and can call ourselves free from our own self imposed  
tyranny.

I love you Roger, sometimes don't understand you and know your doubts  
as my own. So there, know that your first step is taken and that the  
world will not end, we will endure and we will help to make a better  
world from the ashes.

Stefan


On 4 Dec 2008, at 20:56, Joseph Truss wrote:

> Hi Barry,
>
> You probably know of Thomas Homer-Dixon - a good related read  
> regarding 'catagenesis' or creation after destruction - the upside  
> of down.  His earlier book 'the ingenuity gap' also a worthwhile read.
>
> Joseph Truss
> Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity AG
>
>
> From: BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:27:47 AM
> Subject: Re: US carmakers need to be viable for bailout assistance.
>
> Unfortunately Roger is right on.
>
> Naomi Klein in "Shock Doctrine" details the mechanics of the run up  
> to our current crisis and how and why the rape occurred (this part  
> of the book is so massively depressing I could hardly finish it!).  
> In the last part of the book she talks about the hopeful trends that  
> are occurring around the world. Anyone who wants to understand our  
> current crisis who hasn't yet read this book needs to run out and  
> get it. Just remember that the ending is hopeful and don't get too  
> depressed while reading the first 2/3 of it.
>
> Barry
> On Dec 3, 2008, at 2:55 AM, Roger Harnden wrote:
>
>> Come on guys - whether we like the consequences or not there SHOULD  
>> be such a collapse, Bush's criminality was totally underwritten by  
>> an acceptance of the system to allow a. his rape of other cultures  
>> and economies, and b. his deflecting vast sums of public monies to  
>> private companies and individuals. The sad thing from an English  
>> point of view is to note that the UK deficit in trade, is now only  
>> second to US, and event larger in terms of ratio. The net effect is  
>> unthought statements (in UK) that we do not have the money to  
>> further invest in social infrastructure. What a joke.
>>
>> The whole thing has to implode and there will be waiting predators  
>> on the sidelines cheering on the collapse. Two bankrupt cultures  
>> and economies.
>>
>> Roger
>> On 2 Dec 2008, at 22:54, Joseph Truss wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>  Hi Russell,
>>>
>>> In an earlier post, maybe on wiki, you have a single buried  
>>> sentence that asks if the possibility of U.S. currency collapse  
>>> can be contemplated. I think it is as probable as not and have  
>>> been following many threads that lead to that unimaginable outcome  
>>> - I am not predicting it but it is not irrational to give credence  
>>> to models that have predicted many of the recent unthinkable  
>>> outcomes we now live with as if business as usual. We live at a  
>>> time when the unimaginable scenario of last week becomes the  
>>> generally accepted condition of today so quickly that our lacunas  
>>> have lacunas in that we still cannot accept that we must think of  
>>> the unthinkable if we are to be anywhere prepared.  The trick is  
>>> to metabolise the negativity into action and to maintain oneself  
>>> as a positive attractor - for surely negative thinking will  
>>> eventually create what it fears most, as Luc has pointed out as  
>>> well. I feel that engaging our bio-circuitry in the possibility of  
>>> massive disruption is necessary but not for the faint of heart.   
>>> If desperation ensues from engagement it's probably not worth  
>>> engaging. There are certainly large system disaster scenarios that  
>>> apply more now than ever before.  To my brothers and sisters in  
>>> Africa and in many other developing countries, living with  
>>> disruptions of electricity, water, transportation, etc. are a way  
>>> of daily life, hard but survivable, for any large modern centre  
>>> such disruptions are not livable and complete collapse of social  
>>> stability is just another predictable but unthinkable scenario.  
>>> Anyway, I wanted you to know that you are not alone if you  
>>> contemplate such possibilities, and I understand why these  
>>> discussions are not more central to the crises we face and imagine  
>>> we face.
>>>
>>> Wintry warmth from Up-Over.
>>>
>>>
>>> Joseph Truss
>>> Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity AG
>>>
>>>
>>> From: R Clemens <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 3:08:52 PM
>>> Subject: US carmakers need to be viable for bailout assistance.
>>>
>>> Well, they have used the "V" word -- but, alas, I somehow doubt  
>>> they mean it in the manner of the VSM.
>>>
>>> US carmakers in new bail-out plea
>>>
>>> . . .
>>>
>>> But the White House has already expressed scepticism about the  
>>> bail-out plans.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "We are sticking to our guns that the companies have to prove that  
>>> they are viable before taxpayer dollars should be given to them,"  
>>> said White House spokeswoman Dana Perino. [emphasis added]
>>>
>>> . . .
>>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7761015.stm
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
> ===================================================
>
> BARRY A CLEMSON
> [log in to unmask]
>
> 757-692-6673
>
> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>
>
>
> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
> small things with great love."
>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>
> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>
> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>
>
> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>
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