Print

Print


Re my last this kind of thing but- better!
http://www.worldometers.info/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nick Green 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 8:21 PM
  Subject: Re: ebooks


  "Like it!" was from me- not intentionally a private response. If I "Reply" it seems it goes to you. "Reply All" gives me the option to include Listserv. Odd. But happy to contribute to any group effort- which you might like to lead-? Meltdown presumably includes Global Warming as well as this credit nonsense. Might we enter the Google competition?
  http://www.project10tothe100.com/how_it_works.html

  We might suggest a huge database of raw data statistics to run the world to diminish risk and fraud in climate- using a Wiki type environment for System 4, policies of 3 etc. Note closing date Oct 20th!

  From Computer World:

  Google offers $10M for ideas that can 'change the world'

  http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9115459&intsrc=news_ts_head

  Best

  N.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: R Clemens 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 8:03 AM
  Subject: Re: ebooks


  I've had one person email back to me personally "Like it!" -- I've also had others make comments along the way on other subjects ... what I don't understand is the protocol here: In this case, is this a 1:1 that is not wanted to be shared with others? Or is it, as sometimes happens for me, that the email reply function simply places the sender's name rather than the Listserv address in the address field? 
  ---
  In any case I know very little about writing an ebook (although my son has done a simple one and I've emailed off to him for advice). So, here is one google find on what is involved: http://www.promotionworld.com/internet/articles/Howto3070.html 

  It would not seem too difficult to organise a small group of people into a syntegration like process to (a) come up with structure and topics etc; and (b) actually work on various sections towards a holistic end product. Xmas 2008 would seem a good temporal target. 

  rc

  p.s. an example model I'm thinking about is an old book I have here called: "System Thinking", editor: F.E. Emery, Volume One, Penguin Books, 1981 edition. 



  --- On Sun, 5/10/08, R Clemens <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

  From: R Clemens <[log in to unmask]>
  Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
  To: "Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer" <[log in to unmask]>
  Received: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 4:44 AM


  Why don't you/we all work on a quick 'ebook' of considered peer-reviewed opinion on the current state of play globally? I can even see a press headline "Cybernetics Speaks Out On Global Meltdown! 
  It only needs a simple structure of short essays on S1 through S5 by way of examples of issues and associated cybernetic insights. I'm happy to tackle S4 area.

  rc

  --- On Sun, 5/10/08, Nick Green <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

  From: Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>
  Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Received: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 4:24 AM


  Sure, Roger but I do think the time is ripe for, well, something. A letter from us all to Brown and World Bank telling them how to regulate? We should know and some of us actually know the buzzwords of derivative and secondary markets (not me!) . As a cybernetician I do not really understand the relationship between velocity of money and capital invested. In many ways it seems trivial- in others not so. "How do we add value?" is probably the underlying question. How does a gold statue of Kate Moss in the British Museum play out here? Dissipating risk or delocalising it adds some value. We call it "insurance"- a well spring of socialism or free markets, I suppose. Meanwhile large enterprises of all kinds, including governments, waste our money on a fantastic scale. Finding an optimal mix of redundancy and reliability is possibly the key cybernetic question.

  Incidentally Taleb is on wiki at
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Taleb
  His book is an odd collection of anecdote and trenchant criticism with serious experience in derivatives trading. I don't see it as implicitly evil- but fraudulent trading certainly is and no doubt bad money drives out good, as Gresham had it.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roger Harnden 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:17 PM
  Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP


  Not angst, Nick. There is after all the really interesting challenge as to why Staffords ideas have not reached a greater audience, since most of us find the model powerful and insightful, as do most clients. All I was trying to do is re-assess what a possible barrier to take-up might be.  


  I was not really, I suppose commenting on the thread 'Integration.....'. Once more indicates possible shortcoming of this sort of coms I suppose.....And my own clumsy interjection!!!

  On 4 Oct 2008, at 16:48, Nick Green wrote:


  All this angst- to what effect?

  Let us remind ourselves that it is accountability we seek to increase our viability.  Of course governments and companies resist being accountable but even the Big Six auditing companies realise the game's up.
  http://www.cybsoc.org/#realt
  When governments have to lend banks money (because of widespread fraud?) capitalism has died. All we need are products that are fit for purpose. We don't get them. VSM, unlike any other methodology, shows us how to get them: real-time accountability and development.

  By the by re the unreliability of models etc Nicholas Taleb's "Fooled by Randomness", an extended essay on randomness in markets, is available at alt.binaries.mp3.audiobooks. It went up on Friday so it'll likely be there for 5 or 6 more days.

  It's worth saying that the performance of an optimally managed enterprise will look random and thus maximally packed with information. After a few years of analysing time series I was struck that deterministic periods occurred (when a forecast could be made) but most of the time- particularly after aggregation, the series were random. We were using Jones' Gamma Test which is a good tool for Cyber filtration and has neural net modelling built in. Stafford's tech stuff in a box and its free.
  http://users.cs.cf.ac.uk/Antonia.J.Jones/GammaArchive/IndexPage.htm

  That methodology is about as good as it gets and was published in Proceedings of Royal Society 2002. I was able to introduce Jones to Stafford but I think it was his last time in Wales. But moving averages are enough to get things going...

  Best

  N.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Roger Harnden
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 3:37 PM
  Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP


  Yes, once more I agree...........This is bad!!! 


  A flash of maybe really stupid insight....




  I think we are much of the time bobbing about the waves of a choppy sea of Maturana's multiverse. The more I think about it - solely prompted by this tiny thread - it seems to me that it might well be the 'diagramatic' nature of the model that serves as both its wonderful seductive quality AND its weakness.


  I know it might sound heretical, but might it not be that the VSM (in the sense of Stafford's powerful insights) might be better conveyed WITHOUT the classical diagramatic tools????? Just a thought for us all???????????




  We all endlessly return to the issue of the limited impact of what, especially practitioners, find a powerful toolset. And we never seem to come up with convincing answers. Any thoughts on whether the diagrams might be to blame???????






  Roger





  On 4 Oct 2008, at 14:39, R Clemens wrote:


  “What then was Cybersyn?” (John) – Yes, I was waiting for that one.

   
  Indeed what was Cybersyn? Some might suggest it was a failure of historic magnitude?

   
  Could it be described, perhaps, as an intervention in the governance of a country that precipitated subsequent fascist reactions leaving a nation under the control of Pinochet’s military and subsequent Nobel peace prize winners and their various supporting not-so-secret agencies for decades? I can see SAP and Oracle bidding for that one! BTW, China might be a potential new market – the government there is checking all skype calls as well internet traffic these days I hear. Scientific management tools are just what they need! I’m sure they are working on it right now. Let’s hope it fails again.

   
  But my point was not to criticise those who worked at the time in Chile towards good ends.  Rather it was to suggest that there is a difference between human action undertaken in conformance with theory (be it Plato’s or the VSM in this case) and any form of automated ICT system that purports to be the theory in action. What are in place are systems to achieve specific work ends – e.g. payroll. If a ‘whole’ governance system emerges in the minds of the architects and designers then that is confirmation of alignment with VSM theory.

   
  For example, if Cybersyn was a practical implementation of the VSM then we need no more than a few fax machines and a Star Trek control bridge to do it right here and now. But we have even more these days: I’d assume that the industrial military complex’s implementation of the modern internet is at least half the equation in place.  The key for Cybersyn was there were humans who knew what was needed by way of information and knowledge management. Their informed decisions were the results in terms of human political actions – e.g. strike busting. The wisdom, in hind sight, of what they did is another issue altogether. 


   
  So, we now have a new world. Payroll systems, HR systems, finance systems coming out our collective ears. And what do we see today as we look out our windows? Homo Fabre at work to the degree that we now apparently have planetary system problems of huge unsustainability scales; financial systems meltdowns; credit crunches chocking off consumption driven economic systems; experts crying in the wilderness for years about the impending crises due to a lack of systemic viability and underlying corruption; and to top it all, a complete lack of credible leadership or responsible restraint by the plutocrats ‘in charge’.  (That about covers the S1-to-S5 cluster I think).

   
  So, I just get a touch cynical when I see belief in machines acting as an opiate for the masses. I get a touch more agitated when I sense that the experts are falling for the same story. All the data we need is there in truck loads. So, we have a VSM to diagnose and audit this situation and reflect on it. Good. But we do not have a “VSM system” to replace human cognition and ethics. (Roger has since more succinctly put this difference in domain issue).


   
  And while I’m at it (it being a good time Saturday night local standard time) – I’d question the view that the VSM diagram etc is an effective communications mechanism for real world practice. In my experience it is not. Yes, it is accurate for use by informed experts, however, most people I speak to about it see the VSM schematic as an ‘Egyptian Hieroglyph’ – i.e. largely undecipherable.  If cybernetics is about communications and hierarchy in the real world today (circa. 2008) then Stafford ’s works may as well have been written in Sanskrit for today’s management class.

   
  That should get some teeth gnashing and foam at the corner of the mouths of the dear learned believers!

   
  Cheers
  Russell … 

  (Good night and good luck ... ;-)p

  p.s. re: Google groups ... I am not pushing the Google approach -- just noting the 'keeping of gates' ... yes, if it works then use it.... ;-)

  --- On Sat, 4/10/08, John Waters <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

  From: John Waters <[log in to unmask]>
  Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Received: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 8:44 PM


  On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 18:55 -0700, R Clemens wrote:> 1. I thought the VSM was a model for thinking about the world – not so> much acting within it.What then was Cybersyn?John :)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~For more information go to: www.metaphorum.orgFor the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.orgMETAPHORUM eList Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.htmlArchive of CYBCOM eList available at -http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




  Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 








  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1706 - Release Date: 03/10/2008 18:17

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 




  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1706 - Release Date: 03/10/2008 18:17

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 



  Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail.



  Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1709 - Release Date: 05/10/2008 09:20

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~