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It's gotta be Open Software MySQL etc and gotta run wherever there is a numeric data stream being updated. Then take it from there. Nothing wrong with starting with Sales but any list of transactions can get things going. It takes a serious look at doing the Whole of Government to say that. Believe me.

Best

N.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stefan Wasilewski 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:23 PM
  Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP


  snap: 


  Will look at a couple of products and revert tomorrow to give an idea of my thoughts. but one is PersonalBrain 4.5.1.5 bMac MindMap product that has industry connectivity and a SDK that allows integration. There are more.


  Stefan


  On 1 Oct 2008, at 20:53, Garderen, Harold van wrote:


    Gents,

    I'm sorry, but I'm afraid most regular ERP implementations don't contain the type of information one needs to build a VSM on. Data is often restricted to logistics operations, even if the scope contains sales, after-sales, etc. Marketing, R&D, HR, etc are missing 100% in most cases.

    Even worse, data-warehouses are always a source of misintepretation. Hence the booming but ill-fated rise of BI tools and consulting-like services.

    I suggest to approach the problem from the other side: what small process/system/training combi can be introduced (like Adobe has done with the Reader) to spread VSM practice widely despite the existance of large behemoths like Oracle and SAP?

    With kind regards,

    Harold van Garderen | OcÚ-Technologies B.V. | Senior Services Researcher | Document Services Valley
    Postbus 101, 5900 MA Venlo | St. Urbanusweg 43 | The Netherlands
    T +31 (0) 77 359 2446 | M +31 (0) 6 532 94 325 | G 6258 |  [log in to unmask] |  www.oce.nl |  Trade register 12002662



      -----Original Message-----

      From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 

      [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of 

      Leonid Ototsky

      Sent: woensdag 1 oktober 2008 21:22

      To: [log in to unmask]

      Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP



      Stefan,

      Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !

      But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as a 

      superstructure above the ERP ??



      Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it









        Guys



        I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but for a 

      completely 

        different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really 

      around to the 

        depth they are now.



        Both are not software providers but consultants with little 

      interest 

        in support bespoke systems. What's more they're hegemony 

      with all that 

        goes wrong with such things.



        There are better systems that allow the VSM to be embedded and use 

        redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for local 

      parameters to 

        be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so creating 

        recursiveness etc.



        Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is 

      about to change.



        Just a thought



        Stefan



        On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:



          Dear Leonid,



                 This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you did mean 

          "integration" rather than "syntegration".



                 Oracle is a large scale database management system for 

          enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in the US and 

          especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf, Germany.



                 If Oracle does not choose to furnish some 

      corporate funding 

          for your idea then SAP might.



                 As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on seeing his 

          VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should be 

      no barrier 

          to us.



                 Four related points of caution.  (a) My own experience in 

          expressing the VSM in software (using the insight modeling 

      / decision 

          support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly 

      easier to make 

          the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to actually 

      work like 

          the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM sensitivity 

      and nuance 

          to get any substantial gains from adding software.



                 (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by putting up some 

          money, those firms will do so if it looks like a marketing 

          opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be an 

      outcome that 

          merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as the VSM.



                 Marketing people are into positioning follow-on 

      sales.  When 

          the software does not improve operations very much (the far too 

          typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the inevitable 

          solution suggested is buy more of their product and services.



                 (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation 

      should dare be 

          subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An already robust 

          client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a shaky 

          operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when the Oracle/ 

          SAP cure is tried.



                 (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and control of 

          whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle or SAP input.

          Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM 

      capabilities and 

          reputation if given half a chance.



          Ern Reynolds

























          On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky 

      <[log in to unmask]> writes:

            Dear Colleagues.

            My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the Newcastle 

      Business 

            School.

            He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle 

      Applications. He 

            took part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia (Financials 

            module) under a Contract with Oracle Russia.

            Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an 

      integration of 

            the VSM with Oracle (the first interest I marked in the 

            presentation in 2007

            -

            http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf (see

            Supplement-1)

            . A meeting could be organized in the Hull University 

      which is near 

            to the Newcastle. Except the representatives of the VSM 

      community 

            and Anatoly there must be some from the Oracle UK as well !!





            Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it



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