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FYI -- see below

--- On Wed, 29/10/08, Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Snowden & Cybermen
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Received: Wednesday, 29 October, 2008, 6:47 PM

The problem with the word is that stems back to information processing models of the human brain, something common to a long of systems dynamics (and more generally systems thinking).   Cognitive science has moved on from that time and we now know the brain does not process information, but instead blends and activates patterns (that is a gross simplification but you get the point).  The irony is that this allows for humans to be augmented by technology, but points to natural limits in that technology.   As I have said in several of our conversations, the agenda have moved on.  We all owe a great debt to Beer et al, as quantum mechanics owes a debt to Newton.
 

Dave SnowdenFounder & Chief Scientific OfficerCognitive Edge Pte Ltd
Now blogging at www.cognitive-edge.com
 
On 28 Oct 2008, at 12:49, R Clemens wrote:
Dr Snowden

The BBC series Dr Who has played an important part in forming the public mind over the last 40 years. 

You mention not liking the word "cybernetics", and I note that one of the evil archetypal characters in the series is known as 'Cybermen'. 

It has been suggested the head dress of these BBC characters looks similar to Stafford Beer's VSM diagram.  In checking the Wikipedia site I note specific mention to Norbert Weiner and also, interestingly, to a negative St Pancras crowd  reaction to a public presentation of the character in the streets. (* see below)

Given your comment below "...and cybernetics (which I don't like as a word)..." do you think there is a hurdle here in expecting a neutral response from (a) people/public; (b) management; and (c) other professionals, who, like yourself may become exposed to the management cybernetics of Stafford Beer?

If so, do have any free advice to give on what might enhance contemporary 'coupling capacity' with Stafford Beer's VSM? 

regards
Russell

(p.s. if you wish to respond, please email me & I will post it to the Listserv for others to read -- as we seem to have certain technical considerations in place stopping non-members submitting responses directly at this time.)

History Conceptual historyThe name "Cyberman" comes from cybernetics, a term coined in Norbert Wiener's book Cybernetics or Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine (MIT Press, 1948). Wiener used the term in reference to the control of complex systems in the animal world and in mechanical networks, in particular self-regulating control systems. By 1960, doctors were performing research into surgically or mechanically augmenting humans or animals to operate machinery in space, leading to the coining of the term "cyborg", for "cybernetic organism".
In the 1960s, "spare-part" surgery was starting out, with the first, gigantic heart-lung machines being developed. There were also serious suggestions of wiring the nerve endings of amputees directly into machines for quicker response.[5] In 1963, Kit Pedler had a conversation with his wife (who was also a doctor) about what would happen if a person had so many prostheses that they could no longer distinguish themselves between man and machine. He got the opportunity to develop this idea when, in 1966, after an appearance on the BBC science programmes Tomorrow's World and Horizon, the BBC hired him to help on the Doctor Who serial The War Machines. That eventually led to him writing, with Gerry Davis's help, The Tenth Planet for Doctor Who.
Pedler, influenced by the logic-driven Treens from the Dan Dare comic strip, originally envisaged the Cybermen as "space monks", but was persuaded by Davis to concentrate on his fears about the direction of spare-part surgery. The original Cybermen were imagined as human, but with plastic and metal prostheses. The Cybermen of The Tenth Planet still have human hands, and their facial structures are visible beneath the masks they wear. However, over time, they evolved into metallic, more robot-like designs.
The Cybermen attracted controversy when parents complained after a scene in The Tomb of the Cybermen in which a dying Cyberman spurted white foam from its innards. Another incident was initiated by Pedler himself, who took a man in a Cyberman costume into a busy shopping area of St. Pancras. The reaction of the public was predictable, and the crowd almost blocked the street and the police were called in. Pedler said that he "wanted to know how people would react to something quite unusual," but also admitted that he "wanted to be a nuisance."[6] Pedler wrote his last Cyberman story, The Invasion, in 1968, and left Doctor Who with Gerry Davis to develop the scientific thriller series Doomwatch.(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberman) 
 

--- On Mon, 27/10/08, Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Snowden
To: "Garderen, Harold van" <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Received: Monday, 27 October, 2008, 8:49 PM

Thanks Harold and nice to see you engaged.  I haven't got time to write an essay but a couple of points:- I think aspects of Beer apply to the complicated domain of cynefin- I think the complex space needs managing, its not just leaving it alone or assuming that a community of interest (more complicated) will solve it.  More techniques like SNS, but also specific actions to vary constraints and connectivity.  The difference is a solution will be emergent and unique and will not fit in a model- Stuart (had dinner with him a few months ago) more important the V/M I think, his latest badly written book has some real insights in it.- If Beer was around today he would be into (and would understand) complexity and cybernetics (which I don't like as a word) would be a different placeAnd yes, we need to do some very different things if the world is to survive in any humane form - just blogging that
 

Dave SnowdenFounder & Chief Scientific OfficerCognitive Edge Pte Ltd
Now blogging at www.cognitive-edge.com
 
On 27 Oct 2008, at 08:40, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
  Hi Russell,   First of all "yes" I meant "his work".    What I meant to say about "nestedness" is that the Cynefin model suggests that the "hard/intractible problems" are situated in the complexity domain (upper left corner, forgive me Dave :-) ) and can be treated (or at least tried to) by a group of "interested" people, a community of interest so to say. Ofcourse these people come from their respective parts/departments or groups in- or outside the organization and a such they are from different "nests", but not on the sense of "nestedness".    What I meant with prescribing is that Dave never/hardly? prescribes while Beer explicitely models organizations in a nested way with the resource bargain as part of the disussion while forming a lower recursion. I'm not sure it will help, as Dave seems to assume that once such a CoInterest is formed they are given the resources (f.e. time) to work on the problem.   Knowing the Dave is regularly
 involved in treating (or at least consulting for) problem that have to do with improving humanity, I have copied him in with this email. As far as I know, Dave knows about the Varela/Maturana work and about Stuart Kaufmann's work too. The latter might be as important as the last.   Harold 
       From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford   Beer [mailto:] On Behalf Of R Clemens
Sent: zondag 26 oktober   2008 23:54
To:   [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:   Snowden

                  Dear Harold,

Thank you for this positive view. I         think you are right about the potential here -- for both sides of the         coin (and for humanity as well, without trying to save the world!). I         will pass on the very nice term "Beer         proof" (with attribution) to Dave --  I'm sure it will enter         the lexicon down the track.  ;-)

With Dave, on this matter,         I have used the idea of "conceptual coupling" (as per Maturana &         Varela) as a reconciling of certain S5 issues in operation -- and I         hypothesis, if both models/approaches are real, from real identities,         then it is accord with the VSM , and polite society, to follow this         route.

Question: how do you think "prescribing nested forms of         organization" in Dave's work would help         (a) his work; and (b) coupling?  I'm thinking of how to broach the         topic with him. At the moment I've just used the term "Black box" to         describe my interpretation of his way of dealing with the issue.         

regards
Russell 

p.s. I assume your "I would         really encourage he work to be integrated in these discussions." should read "I would         really encourage his         work to be integrated in these discussions."-- is this         correct?

--- On Mon, 27/10/08, Garderen,         Harold van <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
        From:           Garderen, Harold van <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:           Re: Snowden
To: [log in to unmask]
Received:           Monday, 27 October, 2008, 6:45 AM

                    Friends,                     That is right, Dave's view is in no           aspect at odds with Staffords'. That is a rare thing today. I think           Dave is one of the few contemporary management thinkers that can be           regarded as "Beer-proof" today. In particular his Cynefin model (see           paper section of mentioned website) can be seen as covering most of           the dynamic features Beer has put into the VSM.                     On the other hand Dave's work is not so           structured as Beers' VSM. Cynefin isn't prescribing nested forms of           organization. In fact is doesn't say anything about organizational           form whatsoever.                      I would really encourage he work to be           integrated in these discussions. Not only contentwise, but also           because Dave is succesful and booming. An "integration" (hope the word           doesn't convey to many wrong meanings
 here) could speed up the           broadening of interest for the VSM in my view.                     With kind           regards,                     Harold          
                                              From: Forum dedicated to the work of             Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On             Behalf Of R Clemens
Sent: zondag 26 oktober 2008             14:17
To:             [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:             Snowden

                                                                    Roger

If you are interested this link is                   Snowden speaking in Melbourne before he came through Perth                   recently. Careful listening will show that he covers many of                   the VSM aspects -- at least I cannot find any conflict with                   it.

http://www.cognitive-edge.com/podcasts/WS330063.mp3



---                   On Sat, 25/10/08, R Clemens                   <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
                  From:                     R Clemens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:                     Snowden
To: "Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford                     Beer"                     <[log in to unmask]>
Received:                     Saturday, 25 October, 2008, 10:00 AM

                                                                                                            Roger: 

It is discursive and                           digressive and as the Irish would say (I assume): to                           be sure to be sure, I'd have to tell a longish story                           about the truth as I see it myself. 

However,                           in summary:

Dave Snowden is a very well                           informed Welshman I came across in my studies of                           scenarios etc some years ago because of his writings                           on the use of narrative while he worked in IBM                           (through a company merger). 

He is now one of                           the originators of the new field of Knowledge                           Management. He is an expert in complexity                           science and its application to management practice. We                           are trialling his approach Cynefin framework                           (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin) and software                           called SenseMaker                           at my department. (see                           http://www.sensemaker-suite.com/) -- e.g. 

                          "It is a pre-hypothesis                           based research tool, a knowledge repository and a                           decision support system in one coherent package."                           

The approach emerges from a                           foundation in complex                           adaptive systems theory, cognitive sciences                           and narrative &                           anthropology.                           (http://www.sensemaker-suite.com/concept.htm)
He                           was in Perth for a day en-route Melbourne-Singapore,                           and I was host. 

He appears both as academic                           and businessman. He has strong opinions on many things                           -- one of which is that Stafford Beer's model of the                           brain and the VSM are wrong -- or at least out of                           date. [There are strong S5 issues at work here]                           

He does not have a cybernetic or systems                           orientation although I need to be careful here. Ralph                           D Stacey (Complexity                           & Creativity in Organizations) would appear                           to be someone Snowden is aligned with. He did degrees                           in Philosophy & Physics. 

Don't lose sleep                           over it. I find it interesting and useful to synergise                           both SB & DS views (and one or two others). I                           mentioned at Metaphoruim 2008                           (last slide) that I/we were planning to trial SenseMaker as a                           follow-on from our scenario work.  After some                           extended email discussions (you think these are long!)                           - I tortured him enough to consider it theoretically                           possible to use his SenseMaker approach                           to verify the VSM hypothesis. 

To try this I                           now need to develop the right set of signifiers (a                           term he uses that is more than tagging) to show there                           are five interwoven systems and cultures at work (i.e.                           S1 thru S5). I would hope for some help from people                           here when the time comes (and it is coming very soon                           now). I have an organisation of N=1,000 approx. It is                           most likely to be chopped into three. 

p.s. I'm                           not selling his approach or methods or theory -- I'm                           testing it (a) in practice at work; and (b) in theory                           here with the VSM. Whereas VSM is a 'dead duck' in                           respect to local  management interest Snowden's                           approach is rapidly gaining traction. I see his SenseMaker primarily                           as a S3* tool -- but it also has wider application I                           think. I have just had two university schools (one                           business management/leadership and the other                           Sustainability policy and practice) become quite                           interested in his SenseMaker as a                           research tool. 

Oh, I should add, he has a                           following as well! ... ;-)

If you want some                           samples of him speaking then try here:                           http://www.cognitive-edge.com/podcasts.php

---                           end of discursive field notes -----



---                           On Sat, 25/10/08, Roger Harnden                           <[log in to unmask]>                           wrote:
                          From:                             Roger Harnden                             <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:                             Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
To:                             [log in to unmask]
Received:                             Saturday, 25 October, 2008, 2:59 AM

                            Russell.                             
                            I'm missing out somewhere. What is the 'Dave                             Snowden' stuff??                            
                            Roger
                                                        On 24 Oct 2008, at 14:24, R Clemens                             wrote:
                                                                                                                                                          Yes, I am still writing out                                 my 10,000 lines on the blackboard: "Discursive                                 is bad!" ... Not sure it's going to work though                                 ... ;-)p 
What Frank wrote, I responded                                 to. What he meant, I can only surmise. Whether                                 it reflects Bloor, I can only take his                                 opinion.                                 
 
 
--- WARNING: Do Not                                 Read Further If You Wish To Avoid Discursiveness                                 ---


 
                                                                Reliable Knowledge:                                 “Statements about truth must be viewed                                 skeptically. Rather than state something as                                 "true," the following phrase should be used: "On                                 the evidence available today the balance of                                 probability favors the view that...".” ( V.                                 Gordon Childe, Man Makes Himself, 1936) 
                                                                Religious meaning of                                 knowledge: “The Old Testament's Tree of                                 Knowledge of Good and Evil contained the                                 knowledge that separated Man from God: "And the                                 LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one                                 of us, to know good and evil… " (Genesis                                 3:22)” 
(Source: both in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge) 
Why am I there in the Wiki?                                 Well it’s a story for another time perhaps, but,                                 in short, well medium-long, I’ve just spent a                                 busy day studying a strange complex species                                 called “Dave Snowden” at work in the field –                                 hence arriving at “Knowledge Management” is the                                 same Wiki-reference area to quotes above (while                                 I read this email from Frank).  
In my opinion, what Snowden                                 is doing is 100% cybernetics (as per autopoietic                                 definition explained to me by Luc) and his                                 approach – including SenseMaker – is one                                 very powerful tool to use. Watch this space!  
I believe it can cover                                 audit/feedback, boundaries (or lack of them),                                 algedonic links (which he calls                                 disintermediation), homeostatic balance, and                                 inter-recursive level communications issues. In                                 fact, where as VSM gives an x-ray view,                                 Snowden’s complexity approach is very much a                                 ‘Blackbox’ paradigm – and management are getting                                 very excited about it. Ultimately it is second                                 order cybernetics applied to governance praxis.                                 In short, he claims to synergise quantitative                                 and qualitative methods and data – I think                                 effectively.  
In a note to Angela I said:                                 “There are some identity issues between SB [                                 Stafford ] & DS which are natural and                                 expected (and explained in VSM and other                                 models/frameworks).  But this should be                                 celebrated, not seen as a problem. If SB was the                                 "most viable system" someone knew -- then I'd                                 say DS must be one of the most ‘SB’ characters I                                 know (without actually knowing SB -- rather by                                 sensing from reading and Metaphorum derived                                 insight). 
If, I’m wrong then shoot me.                                 Now back to the blackboard…. 
-- End of Discursiveness                                 --- 




--- On                                 Fri, 24/10/08, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>                                 wrote:
                                From:                                 Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                                 Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
To: [log in to unmask]
Received:                                 Friday, 24 October, 2008, 10:45 PM

                                Frank, take no notice of                                 Russell - he lives  down under - probably                                 in the outback  - so all he understands are                                 'walkabouts' (including those to the pub, if my                                 memory is correct!).                                 
                                Serious point. If you look below, I don't                                 think Frank actually said such an  absolute                                 statement. IHe is summarising his understanding                                 of a thesis - indeed, from the look of it (I                                 don't know the book) quite a sensible one.                                
                                It is interesting how many of these                                 discussions circle round (without explicitly                                 acknowledging that they do  the                                 objectivist/relativist debates.                                
                                The thing I keep trying to say - albeit                                 clumsily - is that I feel that insights of                                 cybernetic thinking and analysis overcomes many                                 of the problems that can dog so-called                                 'post-modernist' discourse.                                 
                                Roger                                 
                                PS Russell, in the light of one or two                                 previous irritated comments, I have to say I                                 feel we are both behaving quite well about                                 keeping stuff  terse!                                
                                                                On 24 Oct 2008, at 11:46, Frank                                 wrote:
                                                                                                Ha ha point taken!                                 Sloppy thinking on my part. Nonetheless Bloor                                 makes some interesting points.                                                                 Regards                                                                 Frank                                 Wood                                                                -----                                 Original Message -----                                From: R Clemens                                To: [log in to unmask]                                Sent: Friday,                                 October 24, 2008 11:34 AM                                Subject: Re:                                 Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth                                
                                                                                                                                Re: David Bloor 

The                                 problem I have with these absolutist statements                                 "... there is no such thing as                                 absolute truth .. " is                                 they are self contradictory.

I once sat                                 through 20 minutes of indoctrination (1:1) by a                                 supposed policy expert who's thesis was "there                                 are no facts" -- when she'd finished I simple                                 asked the obvious question -- "Is that a fact?"                                 Session ended rather soon                                 afterwards.

 

--- On Fri,                                 24/10/08, Frank <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
                                From:                                 Frank <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                                 Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of                                 Truth
To: [log in to unmask]
Received:                                 Friday, 24 October, 2008, 8:58 PM

                                                                Just seen the error                                 that Barry made so don't have to make the                                 correction now :-)                                                                 Kenneth Patchen                                 said in his novel The                                 Journal of Albion Moonlight "I                                 do not choose my truths." I disagree. I think we                                 choose our truths in the light of our culture                                 and the paradigm of our times.                                                                 This is the point                                 David Bloor made in his book "Knowledge and                                 Social Imagery". My interpretation of what he                                 said is that there is no such thing as absolute                     
            truth and that truth is dependent on the ongoing                                 paradigm and nothing changes until the paradigm                                 is broken and then the paradigm breakers set up                                 the new paradigm.                                                                 His section The                                 Popper-Kuhn Debate  is an interesting                                 discussion on truth and the nature of                                 facts.                                                                 This is a good                                 overview of Bloor's stance.                                                                 http://www.iit.edu/~schmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/social.pdf                                                                 Regards                                                                 Frank          
                       Wood                                                                -----                                 Original Message -----                                From: BARRY A                                 CLEMSON                                To: [log in to unmask]                                Sent: Thursday,                                 October 23, 2008 6:27 PM                                Subject: Re:                                 Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth                                
Stefan,                                 
                                Thank  you. It is no wonder I was                                 confused, I didn't see the article by Simson L                                 Garfinkel and I thought you were talking about                                 Frank.                                
                                Barry
                                                                On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Stefan                                 Wasilewski wrote:
                                                                Barry (and Frank)                                 
                                I was addressing the article of Simson                                 L. Garfinkel itself and                                 not Frank at all, having read the whole thing                                 and the result was my thoughts as                                 below.                                
                                I believe Roger replied and I agree with                                 him (and Frank) but to reply to your                                 thought, we should always go into something with                                 the idea of verifying what we read.                                
                                Garfinkel is Navy and framed by his                                 environment and this was my thrust in your point                                 3. I'm old enough to remember being behind the                                 'Wall' for long periods and talking to those of                                 my age that sought 'truth' but who were open                                 enough to question what was said all along the                                 way: This attitude stayed with me.                                
                                Of the times I've had discussion with Frank                                 it was always clear, interesting and thought                                 provoking, I seldom now respond to anything                                 other.                                
                                Hope this helps                                
                                Stefan                                
                                
                                                                                                On 23 Oct 2008, at 16:46, BARRY A CLEMSON                                 wrote:
                                                                Stefan,                                 
                                I find your comments puzzling and would                                 like clarification.                                 
                                1) It seems to me that you are saying that                                 Frank has a grudge -- is this correct? I found                                 his piece to be a thoughtful critique that also                                 was quite supportive of Wikipedia.                                
                                2) You say (and I agree) it is up to each                                 of us to verify the facts we seek. What Frank                                 pointed out very nicely is that we might be                                 blindsided by our unexamined assumptions. And if                                 we are not even aware of our assumptions (which                                 is often the case) we are quite thoroughly                                 trapped by them and unable to check our                                 facts.                                
                                3) i saw no hint of a suggestion to prefer                                 "the current filtering of information and the                                 writing of history by the winners". Rather I saw                                 support for Wikipedia. Where did this come                                 from?                                
                                4) Perhaps I am merely clueless but I don't                                 see how his specific profession provides any                                 clue to his viewpoint.                                
                                Please help me out here.                                
                                Barry                                
                                
                                                                On Oct 23, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Stefan                                 Wasilewski wrote:
                                                                I generally find that people who criticise                                 but don't offer an alternative have a grudge and                                 therefore to be put in one box to be balanced as                                 others are likewise accessed.                                 
                                Surely it's up to each and every one of us                                 to verify the facts we seek and in doing so                                 learn accordingly: Nothing should be taken on                                 face value.                                
                                Would he prefer the current filtering of                                 information and the writing of history by the                                 winners to remain as our only sources?                                
                                His profession should give a clue to                                 viewpoint.                                
                                Stefan                                  
                                                                On 23 Oct 2008, at 13:24, Frank                                 wrote:
                                                                                                Dear                                 Listm                                http://www.technologyreview.com/web/21558/?nlid=1452&a=f                                                                 Any                                 comments?                                                                 Regards                                                                 Frank                                 Wood~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                 For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the                                 Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment                                (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM                                 eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive                     
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                                BARRY A CLEMSON                                [log in to unmask]                                
                                757-692-6673                                
                                Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com                                
                                
                                
                                "It's not how much you do - it's how much                                 love you put in it.... Do small things with                                 great love."                                                                            --- Mother Teresa ---                                
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                                And peace rolled down like a mighty                                 river.                                       -- Inspired                                 by the prophet Amos 5:24--                                



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                 For more information go to: www.metaphorum.orgFor the                                 Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment                                 (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM                                 eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive                                 of CYBCOM eList available at -http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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                                BARRY A CLEMSON                                [log in to unmask]                                
                                757-692-6673                                
                                Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com                                
                                
                                
                                "It's not how much you do - it's how much                                 love you put in it.... Do small things with                                 great love."                                                                            --- Mother Teresa ---                                
                                The true warrior may be killed, but he can                                 not be defeated.                                    --- my paraphrase of Sensei                                 Hamada ---                                
                                And peace rolled down like a mighty                                 river.                                       -- Inspired                                 by the prophet Amos 5:24--                                





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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                 For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org                                 For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working                                 Environment (MCWE) go to:                                 www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList                                 Archive available at -                                 https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html                                 Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html                                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                 
                                                            Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail.                               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                               For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For                               the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment                               (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM                               eList Archive available at -                               https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html                               Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html                               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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