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Friends,
 
That is right, Dave's view is in no aspect at odds with Staffords'. That
is a rare thing today. I think Dave is one of the few contemporary
management thinkers that can be regarded as "Beer-proof" today. In
particular his Cynefin model (see paper section of mentioned website)
can be seen as covering most of the dynamic features Beer has put into
the VSM.
 
On the other hand Dave's work is not so structured as Beers' VSM.
Cynefin isn't prescribing nested forms of organization. In fact is
doesn't say anything about organizational form whatsoever. 
 
I would really encourage he work to be integrated in these discussions.
Not only contentwise, but also because Dave is succesful and booming. An
"integration" (hope the word doesn't convey to many wrong meanings here)
could speed up the broadening of interest for the VSM in my view.
 
With kind regards,
 
Harold


________________________________

	From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of R Clemens
	Sent: zondag 26 oktober 2008 14:17
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: Snowden
	
	
Roger

If you are interested this link is Snowden speaking in Melbourne before
he came through Perth recently. Careful listening will show that he
covers many of the VSM aspects -- at least I cannot find any conflict
with it.

http://www.cognitive-edge.com/podcasts/WS330063.mp3



--- On Sat, 25/10/08, R Clemens <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


	From: R Clemens <[log in to unmask]>
	Subject: Re: Snowden
	To: "Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer"
<[log in to unmask]>
	Received: Saturday, 25 October, 2008, 10:00 AM
	
	
Roger: 

It is discursive and digressive and as the Irish would say (I assume):
to be sure to be sure, I'd have to tell a longish story about the truth
as I see it myself. 

However, in summary:

Dave Snowden is a very well informed Welshman I came across in my
studies of scenarios etc some years ago because of his writings on the
use of narrative while he worked in IBM (through a company merger). 

He is now one of the originators of the new field of Knowledge
Management. He is an expert in complexity science and its application to
management practice. We are trialling his approach Cynefin framework
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin) and software called SenseMaker at
my department. (see http://www.sensemaker-suite.com/) -- e.g. 


"It is a pre-hypothesis based research tool, a knowledge repository and
a decision support system in one coherent package." 



The approach emerges from a foundation in complex adaptive systems
theory, cognitive sciences and narrative & anthropology.
(http://www.sensemaker-suite.com/concept.htm)


He was in Perth for a day en-route Melbourne-Singapore, and I was host. 

He appears both as academic and businessman. He has strong opinions on
many things -- one of which is that Stafford Beer's model of the brain
and the VSM are wrong -- or at least out of date. [There are strong S5
issues at work here] 

He does not have a cybernetic or systems orientation although I need to
be careful here. Ralph D Stacey (Complexity & Creativity in
Organizations) would appear to be someone Snowden is aligned with. He
did degrees in Philosophy & Physics. 

Don't lose sleep over it. I find it interesting and useful to synergise
both SB & DS views (and one or two others). I mentioned at Metaphoruim
2008 (last slide) that I/we were planning to trial SenseMaker as a
follow-on from our scenario work.  After some extended email discussions
(you think these are long!) - I tortured him enough to consider it
theoretically possible to use his SenseMaker approach to verify the VSM
hypothesis. 

To try this I now need to develop the right set of signifiers (a term he
uses that is more than tagging) to show there are five interwoven
systems and cultures at work (i.e. S1 thru S5). I would hope for some
help from people here when the time comes (and it is coming very soon
now). I have an organisation of N=1,000 approx. It is most likely to be
chopped into three. 

p.s. I'm not selling his approach or methods or theory -- I'm testing it
(a) in practice at work; and (b) in theory here with the VSM. Whereas
VSM is a 'dead duck' in respect to local  management interest Snowden's
approach is rapidly gaining traction. I see his SenseMaker primarily as
a S3* tool -- but it also has wider application I think. I have just had
two university schools (one business management/leadership and the other
Sustainability policy and practice) become quite interested in his
SenseMaker as a research tool. 

Oh, I should add, he has a following as well! ... ;-)

If you want some samples of him speaking then try here:
http://www.cognitive-edge.com/podcasts.php

--- end of discursive field notes -----



--- On Sat, 25/10/08, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:


	From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
	Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Received: Saturday, 25 October, 2008, 2:59 AM
	
	
	Russell. 

	I'm missing out somewhere. What is the 'Dave Snowden' stuff??

	Roger
	
	On 24 Oct 2008, at 14:24, R Clemens wrote:


Yes, I am still writing out my 10,000 lines on the blackboard:
"Discursive is bad!" ... Not sure it's going to work though ... ;-)p

 

What Frank wrote, I responded to. What he meant, I can only surmise.
Whether it reflects Bloor, I can only take his opinion.

 

 

 

--- WARNING: Do Not Read Further If You Wish To Avoid Discursiveness ---








 

*	Reliable Knowledge: "Statements about truth must be viewed
skeptically. Rather than state something as "true," the following phrase
should be used: "On the evidence available today the balance of
probability favors the view that..."." ( V. Gordon Childe, Man Makes
Himself, 1936)

 

*	Religious meaning of knowledge: "The Old Testament's Tree of
Knowledge of Good and Evil contained the knowledge that separated Man
from God: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of
us, to know good and evil... " (Genesis 3:22)"

 

(Source: both in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)

 

Why am I there in the Wiki? Well it's a story for another time perhaps,
but, in short, well medium-long, I've just spent a busy day studying a
strange complex species called "Dave Snowden" at work in the field -
hence arriving at "Knowledge Management" is the same Wiki-reference area
to quotes above (while I read this email from Frank). 

 

In my opinion, what Snowden is doing is 100% cybernetics (as per
autopoietic definition explained to me by Luc) and his approach -
including SenseMaker - is one very powerful tool to use. Watch this
space! 

 

I believe it can cover audit/feedback, boundaries (or lack of them),
algedonic links (which he calls disintermediation), homeostatic balance,
and inter-recursive level communications issues. In fact, where as VSM
gives an x-ray view, Snowden's complexity approach is very much a
'Blackbox' paradigm - and management are getting very excited about it.
Ultimately it is second order cybernetics applied to governance praxis.
In short, he claims to synergise quantitative and qualitative methods
and data - I think effectively. 

 

In a note to Angela I said: "There are some identity issues between SB [
Stafford ] & DS which are natural and expected (and explained in VSM and
other models/frameworks).  But this should be celebrated, not seen as a
problem. If SB was the "most viable system" someone knew -- then I'd say
DS must be one of the most 'SB' characters I know (without actually
knowing SB -- rather by sensing from reading and Metaphorum derived
insight).

 

If, I'm wrong then shoot me. Now back to the blackboard....

 

-- End of Discursiveness --- 




--- On Fri, 24/10/08, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


	From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
	Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 10:45 PM
	
	
	Frank, take no notice of Russell - he lives  down under -
probably in the outback  - so all he understands are 'walkabouts'
(including those to the pub, if my memory is correct!). 

	Serious point. If you look below, I don't think Frank actually
said such an  absolute statement. IHe is summarising his understanding
of a thesis - indeed, from the look of it (I don't know the book) quite
a sensible one.

	It is interesting how many of these discussions circle round
(without explicitly acknowledging that they do  the
objectivist/relativist debates.

	The thing I keep trying to say - albeit clumsily - is that I
feel that insights of cybernetic thinking and analysis overcomes many of
the problems that can dog so-called 'post-modernist' discourse. 

	Roger 

	PS Russell, in the light of one or two previous irritated
comments, I have to say I feel we are both behaving quite well about
keeping stuff  terse!

	On 24 Oct 2008, at 11:46, Frank wrote:


		
		Ha ha point taken! Sloppy thinking on my part.
Nonetheless Bloor makes some interesting points.
		 
		Regards
		 
		Frank Wood

			----- Original Message -----
			From: R Clemens <mailto:[log in to unmask]> 
			To: [log in to unmask]
			Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:34 AM
			Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth

Re: David Bloor 

The problem I have with these absolutist statements "... there is no
such thing as absolute truth .. " is they are self contradictory.

I once sat through 20 minutes of indoctrination (1:1) by a supposed
policy expert who's thesis was "there are no facts" -- when she'd
finished I simple asked the obvious question -- "Is that a fact?"
Session ended rather soon afterwards.

 

--- On Fri, 24/10/08, Frank <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


	From: Frank <[log in to unmask]>
	Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 8:58 PM
	
	
	Just seen the error that Barry made so don't have to make the
correction now :-)
	 
	Kenneth Patchen said in his novel The Journal of Albion
Moonlight "I do not choose my truths." I disagree. I think we choose our
truths in the light of our culture and the paradigm of our times.
	 
	This is the point David Bloor made in his book "Knowledge and
Social Imagery". My interpretation of what he said is that there is no
such thing as absolute truth and that truth is dependent on the ongoing
paradigm and nothing changes until the paradigm is broken and then the
paradigm breakers set up the new paradigm.
	 
	His section The Popper-Kuhn Debate  is an interesting discussion
on truth and the nature of facts.
	 
	This is a good overview of Bloor's stance.
	 
	
http://www.iit.edu/~schmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/social
.pdf
<http://www.iit.edu/%7Eschmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/soc
ial.pdf> 
	 
	Regards
	 
	Frank Wood

		----- Original Message -----
		From: BARRY A CLEMSON <mailto:[log in to unmask]> 
		To: [log in to unmask]
		Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:27 PM
		Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth

		Stefan, 

		Thank  you. It is no wonder I was confused, I didn't see
the article by Simson L Garfinkel and I thought you were talking about
Frank.

		Barry
		
		On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:


			Barry (and Frank) 

			I was addressing the article of Simson L.
Garfinkel itself and not Frank at all, having read the whole thing and
the result was my thoughts as below.

			I believe Roger replied and I agree with him
(and Frank) but to reply to your thought, we should always go into
something with the idea of verifying what we read.

			Garfinkel is Navy and framed by his environment
and this was my thrust in your point 3. I'm old enough to remember being
behind the 'Wall' for long periods and talking to those of my age that
sought 'truth' but who were open enough to question what was said all
along the way: This attitude stayed with me.

			Of the times I've had discussion with Frank it
was always clear, interesting and thought provoking, I seldom now
respond to anything other.

			Hope this helps

			Stefan


			On 23 Oct 2008, at 16:46, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:


				Stefan, 

				I find your comments puzzling and would
like clarification. 

				1) It seems to me that you are saying
that Frank has a grudge -- is this correct? I found his piece to be a
thoughtful critique that also was quite supportive of Wikipedia.

				2) You say (and I agree) it is up to
each of us to verify the facts we seek. What Frank pointed out very
nicely is that we might be blindsided by our unexamined assumptions. And
if we are not even aware of our assumptions (which is often the case) we
are quite thoroughly trapped by them and unable to check our facts.

				3) i saw no hint of a suggestion to
prefer "the current filtering of information and the writing of history
by the winners". Rather I saw support for Wikipedia. Where did this come
from?

				4) Perhaps I am merely clueless but I
don't see how his specific profession provides any clue to his
viewpoint.

				Please help me out here.

				Barry


				On Oct 23, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Stefan
Wasilewski wrote:


				I generally find that people who
criticise but don't offer an alternative have a grudge and therefore to
be put in one box to be balanced as others are likewise accessed. 

				Surely it's up to each and every one of
us to verify the facts we seek and in doing so learn accordingly:
Nothing should be taken on face value.

				Would he prefer the current filtering of
information and the writing of history by the winners to remain as our
only sources?

				His profession should give a clue to
viewpoint.

				Stefan
				  
				
				On 23 Oct 2008, at 13:24, Frank wrote:


				
				Dear Listm
	
http://www.technologyreview.com/web/21558/?nlid=1452&a=f
				 
				Any comments?
				 
				Regards
				 
				Frank Wood
	
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				"It's not how much you do - it's how
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				            --- Mother Teresa ---

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		[log in to unmask]

		757-692-6673

		Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com



		"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put
in it.... Do small things with great love."
		            --- Mother Teresa ---

		The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be
defeated. 
		   --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

		And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
		       -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--






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