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With respect, Frank. I've looked at your reference, but it perhaps  
requires too much attention. I found your summary fine.

Interesting how the whole never-ending cycle of observation,  
hermeneutics, reflection, hypothesis, testing, prejudice, objectivity  
just goes round and round and round. Makes one realise how deeply  
implicated and embedded all these issues are.

It's like religion. Without claiming a position as 'true' or not, I -  
a deeply committed atheist - occasionally find myself face-to face  
with deeply committed believers in some creed or other. Sometimes  
there is absolutely no conflict, tension or confusion. Other times,  
there is deep confusion and mistrust. Which leads me to believe that  
it's not at all about truth or untruth, culture or nation, but is  
about attitude.

Given the 'right' attitude, it just does not matter about the person's  
context. What matter is shared values and whether one trust's the  
other's statement about their values - whether their actions and  
conversation reflect or not stated values.

Of course, given shared context, the whole thing is more speedily  
resolved, but not necessarily in a positive way.

Roger







On 24 Oct 2008, at 16:58, Frank wrote:

> Russell wrote:
> >What Frank wrote, I responded to. What he meant, I can only  
> surmise. Whether it reflects Bloor, I can only take his opinion.
>
> That's why I included in my previous message the link below so as to  
> give people some idea as to what Bloor was on about.
>
> http://www.iit.edu/~schmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/social.pdf
>
> Regards
>
> Frank Wood
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: R Clemens
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
>
> Yes, I am still writing out my 10,000 lines on the blackboard:  
> "Discursive is bad!" ... Not sure it's going to work though ... ;-)p
>
>
> What Frank wrote, I responded to. What he meant, I can only surmise.  
> Whether it reflects Bloor, I can only take his opinion.
>
>
>
>
> --- WARNING: Do Not Read Further If You Wish To Avoid Discursiveness  
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Reliable Knowledge: “Statements about truth must be viewed  
> skeptically. Rather than state something as "true," the following  
> phrase should be used: "On the evidence available today the balance  
> of probability favors the view that...".” ( V. Gordon Childe, Man  
> Makes Himself, 1936)
>
> Religious meaning of knowledge: “The Old Testament's Tree of  
> Knowledge of Good and Evil contained the knowledge that separated  
> Man from God: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as  
> one of us, to know good and evil… " (Genesis 3:22)”
>
> (Source: both in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)
>
>
> Why am I there in the Wiki? Well it’s a story for another time  
> perhaps, but, in short, well medium-long, I’ve just spent a busy day  
> studying a strange complex species called “Dave Snowden” at work in  
> the field – hence arriving at “Knowledge Management” is the same  
> Wiki-reference area to quotes above (while I read this email from  
> Frank).
>
>
> In my opinion, what Snowden is doing is 100% cybernetics (as per  
> autopoietic definition explained to me by Luc) and his approach –  
> including SenseMaker – is one very powerful tool to use. Watch this  
> space!
>
>
> I believe it can cover audit/feedback, boundaries (or lack of them),  
> algedonic links (which he calls disintermediation), homeostatic  
> balance, and inter-recursive level communications issues. In fact,  
> where as VSM gives an x-ray view, Snowden’s complexity approach is  
> very much a ‘Blackbox’ paradigm – and management are getting very  
> excited about it. Ultimately it is second order cybernetics applied  
> to governance praxis. In short, he claims to synergise quantitative  
> and qualitative methods and data – I think effectively.
>
>
> In a note to Angela I said: “There are some identity issues between  
> SB [Stafford] & DS which are natural and expected (and explained in  
> VSM and other models/frameworks).  But this should be celebrated,  
> not seen as a problem. If SB was the "most viable system" someone  
> knew -- then I'd say DS must be one of the most ‘SB’ characters I  
> know (without actually knowing SB -- rather by sensing from reading  
> and Metaphorum derived insight).
>
>
> If, I’m wrong then shoot me. Now back to the blackboard….
>
>
> -- End of Discursiveness --- 
> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
> <!--[endif]-->
>
>
> --- On Fri, 24/10/08, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 10:45 PM
>
> Frank, take no notice of Russell - he lives  down under - probably  
> in the outback  - so all he understands are 'walkabouts' (including  
> those to the pub, if my memory is correct!).
>
> Serious point. If you look below, I don't think Frank actually said  
> such an  absolute statement. IHe is summarising his understanding of  
> a thesis - indeed, from the look of it (I don't know the book) quite  
> a sensible one.
>
> It is interesting how many of these discussions circle round  
> (without explicitly acknowledging that they do  the objectivist/ 
> relativist debates.
>
> The thing I keep trying to say - albeit clumsily - is that I feel  
> that insights of cybernetic thinking and analysis overcomes many of  
> the problems that can dog so-called 'post-modernist' discourse.
>
> Roger
>
> PS Russell, in the light of one or two previous irritated comments,  
> I have to say I feel we are both behaving quite well about keeping  
> stuff  terse!
>
> On 24 Oct 2008, at 11:46, Frank wrote:
>
>> Ha ha point taken! Sloppy thinking on my part. Nonetheless Bloor  
>> makes some interesting points.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank Wood
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: R Clemens
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
>>
>> Re: David Bloor
>>
>> The problem I have with these absolutist statements "... there is  
>> no such thing as absolute truth .. " is they are self contradictory.
>>
>> I once sat through 20 minutes of indoctrination (1:1) by a supposed  
>> policy expert who's thesis was "there are no facts" -- when she'd  
>> finished I simple asked the obvious question -- "Is that a fact?"  
>> Session ended rather soon afterwards.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 24/10/08, Frank <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Frank <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 8:58 PM
>>
>> Just seen the error that Barry made so don't have to make the  
>> correction now :-)
>>
>> Kenneth Patchen said in his novel The Journal of Albion Moonlight  
>> "I do not choose my truths." I disagree. I think we choose our  
>> truths in the light of our culture and the paradigm of our times.
>>
>> This is the point David Bloor made in his book "Knowledge and  
>> Social Imagery". My interpretation of what he said is that there is  
>> no such thing as absolute truth and that truth is dependent on the  
>> ongoing paradigm and nothing changes until the paradigm is broken  
>> and then the paradigm breakers set up the new paradigm.
>>
>> His section The Popper-Kuhn Debate  is an interesting discussion on  
>> truth and the nature of facts.
>>
>> This is a good overview of Bloor's stance.
>>
>> http://www.iit.edu/~schmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/social.pdf
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank Wood
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: BARRY A CLEMSON
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
>>
>> Stefan,
>>
>> Thank  you. It is no wonder I was confused, I didn't see the  
>> article by Simson L Garfinkel and I thought you were talking about  
>> Frank.
>>
>> Barry
>> On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>>
>>> Barry (and Frank)
>>>
>>> I was addressing the article of Simson L. Garfinkel itself and not  
>>> Frank at all, having read the whole thing and the result was my  
>>> thoughts as below.
>>>
>>> I believe Roger replied and I agree with him (and Frank) but to  
>>> reply to your thought, we should always go into something with the  
>>> idea of verifying what we read.
>>>
>>> Garfinkel is Navy and framed by his environment and this was my  
>>> thrust in your point 3. I'm old enough to remember being behind  
>>> the 'Wall' for long periods and talking to those of my age that  
>>> sought 'truth' but who were open enough to question what was said  
>>> all along the way: This attitude stayed with me.
>>>
>>> Of the times I've had discussion with Frank it was always clear,  
>>> interesting and thought provoking, I seldom now respond to  
>>> anything other.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23 Oct 2008, at 16:46, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stefan,
>>>>
>>>> I find your comments puzzling and would like clarification.
>>>>
>>>> 1) It seems to me that you are saying that Frank has a grudge --  
>>>> is this correct? I found his piece to be a thoughtful critique  
>>>> that also was quite supportive of Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>> 2) You say (and I agree) it is up to each of us to verify the  
>>>> facts we seek. What Frank pointed out very nicely is that we  
>>>> might be blindsided by our unexamined assumptions. And if we are  
>>>> not even aware of our assumptions (which is often the case) we  
>>>> are quite thoroughly trapped by them and unable to check our facts.
>>>>
>>>> 3) i saw no hint of a suggestion to prefer "the current filtering  
>>>> of information and the writing of history by the winners". Rather  
>>>> I saw support for Wikipedia. Where did this come from?
>>>>
>>>> 4) Perhaps I am merely clueless but I don't see how his specific  
>>>> profession provides any clue to his viewpoint.
>>>>
>>>> Please help me out here.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 23, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I generally find that people who criticise but don't offer an  
>>>>> alternative have a grudge and therefore to be put in one box to  
>>>>> be balanced as others are likewise accessed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely it's up to each and every one of us to verify the facts  
>>>>> we seek and in doing so learn accordingly: Nothing should be  
>>>>> taken on face value.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would he prefer the current filtering of information and the  
>>>>> writing of history by the winners to remain as our only sources?
>>>>>
>>>>> His profession should give a clue to viewpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stefan
>>>>>
>>>>> On 23 Oct 2008, at 13:24, Frank wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Listm
>>>>>> http://www.technologyreview.com/web/21558/?nlid=1452&a=f
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any comments?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Wood
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the  
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ===================================================
>>>>
>>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>> 757-692-6673
>>>>
>>>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it....  
>>>> Do small things with great love."
>>>>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>>>>
>>>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>>>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>>>
>>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>>>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ===================================================
>>
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 757-692-6673
>>
>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
>> small things with great love."
>>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>>
>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>
>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>
>> Virus Database (VPS): 081023-0, 23/10/2008
>> Tested on: 24/10/2008 10:35:50
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>>
>>
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