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Russell.

I'm missing out somewhere. What is the 'Dave Snowden' stuff??

Roger
On 24 Oct 2008, at 14:24, R Clemens wrote:

> Yes, I am still writing out my 10,000 lines on the blackboard:  
> "Discursive is bad!" ... Not sure it's going to work though ... ;-)p
>
>
>
> What Frank wrote, I responded to. What he meant, I can only surmise.  
> Whether it reflects Bloor, I can only take his opinion.
>
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>
> --- WARNING: Do Not Read Further If You Wish To Avoid Discursiveness  
> ---
>
>
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>
>
> Reliable Knowledge: “Statements about truth must be viewed  
> skeptically. Rather than state something as "true," the following  
> phrase should be used: "On the evidence available today the balance  
> of probability favors the view that...".” ( V. Gordon Childe, Man  
> Makes Himself, 1936)
>
>
> Religious meaning of knowledge: “The Old Testament's Tree of  
> Knowledge of Good and Evil contained the knowledge that separated  
> Man from God: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as  
> one of us, to know good and evil… " (Genesis 3:22)”
>
>
> (Source: both in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)
>
>
>
> Why am I there in the Wiki? Well it’s a story for another time  
> perhaps, but, in short, well medium-long, I’ve just spent a busy day  
> studying a strange complex species called “Dave Snowden” at work in  
> the field – hence arriving at “Knowledge Management” is the same  
> Wiki-reference area to quotes above (while I read this email from  
> Frank).
>
>
>
> In my opinion, what Snowden is doing is 100% cybernetics (as per  
> autopoietic definition explained to me by Luc) and his approach –  
> including SenseMaker – is one very powerful tool to use. Watch this  
> space!
>
>
>
> I believe it can cover audit/feedback, boundaries (or lack of them),  
> algedonic links (which he calls disintermediation), homeostatic  
> balance, and inter-recursive level communications issues. In fact,  
> where as VSM gives an x-ray view, Snowden’s complexity approach is  
> very much a ‘Blackbox’ paradigm – and management are getting very  
> excited about it. Ultimately it is second order cybernetics applied  
> to governance praxis. In short, he claims to synergise quantitative  
> and qualitative methods and data – I think effectively.
>
>
>
> In a note to Angela I said: “There are some identity issues between  
> SB [Stafford] & DS which are natural and expected (and explained in  
> VSM and other models/frameworks).  But this should be celebrated,  
> not seen as a problem. If SB was the "most viable system" someone  
> knew -- then I'd say DS must be one of the most ‘SB’ characters I  
> know (without actually knowing SB -- rather by sensing from reading  
> and Metaphorum derived insight).
>
>
>
> If, I’m wrong then shoot me. Now back to the blackboard….
>
>
>
> -- End of Discursiveness --- 
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 24/10/08, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 10:45 PM
>
> Frank, take no notice of Russell - he lives  down under - probably  
> in the outback  - so all he understands are 'walkabouts' (including  
> those to the pub, if my memory is correct!).
>
> Serious point. If you look below, I don't think Frank actually said  
> such an  absolute statement. IHe is summarising his understanding of  
> a thesis - indeed, from the look of it (I don't know the book) quite  
> a sensible one.
>
> It is interesting how many of these discussions circle round  
> (without explicitly acknowledging that they do  the objectivist/ 
> relativist debates.
>
> The thing I keep trying to say - albeit clumsily - is that I feel  
> that insights of cybernetic thinking and analysis overcomes many of  
> the problems that can dog so-called 'post-modernist' discourse.
>
> Roger
>
> PS Russell, in the light of one or two previous irritated comments,  
> I have to say I feel we are both behaving quite well about keeping  
> stuff  terse!
>
> On 24 Oct 2008, at 11:46, Frank wrote:
>
>> Ha ha point taken! Sloppy thinking on my part. Nonetheless Bloor  
>> makes some interesting points.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank Wood
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: R Clemens
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
>>
>> Re: David Bloor
>>
>> The problem I have with these absolutist statements "... there is  
>> no such thing as absolute truth .. " is they are self contradictory.
>>
>> I once sat through 20 minutes of indoctrination (1:1) by a supposed  
>> policy expert who's thesis was "there are no facts" -- when she'd  
>> finished I simple asked the obvious question -- "Is that a fact?"  
>> Session ended rather soon afterwards.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 24/10/08, Frank <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Frank <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 8:58 PM
>>
>> Just seen the error that Barry made so don't have to make the  
>> correction now :-)
>>
>> Kenneth Patchen said in his novel The Journal of Albion Moonlight  
>> "I do not choose my truths." I disagree. I think we choose our  
>> truths in the light of our culture and the paradigm of our times.
>>
>> This is the point David Bloor made in his book "Knowledge and  
>> Social Imagery". My interpretation of what he said is that there is  
>> no such thing as absolute truth and that truth is dependent on the  
>> ongoing paradigm and nothing changes until the paradigm is broken  
>> and then the paradigm breakers set up the new paradigm.
>>
>> His section The Popper-Kuhn Debate  is an interesting discussion on  
>> truth and the nature of facts.
>>
>> This is a good overview of Bloor's stance.
>>
>> http://www.iit.edu/~schmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/social.pdf
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank Wood
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: BARRY A CLEMSON
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
>>
>> Stefan,
>>
>> Thank  you. It is no wonder I was confused, I didn't see the  
>> article by Simson L Garfinkel and I thought you were talking about  
>> Frank.
>>
>> Barry
>> On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>>
>>> Barry (and Frank)
>>>
>>> I was addressing the article of Simson L. Garfinkel itself and not  
>>> Frank at all, having read the whole thing and the result was my  
>>> thoughts as below.
>>>
>>> I believe Roger replied and I agree with him (and Frank) but to  
>>> reply to your thought, we should always go into something with the  
>>> idea of verifying what we read.
>>>
>>> Garfinkel is Navy and framed by his environment and this was my  
>>> thrust in your point 3. I'm old enough to remember being behind  
>>> the 'Wall' for long periods and talking to those of my age that  
>>> sought 'truth' but who were open enough to question what was said  
>>> all along the way: This attitude stayed with me.
>>>
>>> Of the times I've had discussion with Frank it was always clear,  
>>> interesting and thought provoking, I seldom now respond to  
>>> anything other.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23 Oct 2008, at 16:46, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stefan,
>>>>
>>>> I find your comments puzzling and would like clarification.
>>>>
>>>> 1) It seems to me that you are saying that Frank has a grudge --  
>>>> is this correct? I found his piece to be a thoughtful critique  
>>>> that also was quite supportive of Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>> 2) You say (and I agree) it is up to each of us to verify the  
>>>> facts we seek. What Frank pointed out very nicely is that we  
>>>> might be blindsided by our unexamined assumptions. And if we are  
>>>> not even aware of our assumptions (which is often the case) we  
>>>> are quite thoroughly trapped by them and unable to check our facts.
>>>>
>>>> 3) i saw no hint of a suggestion to prefer "the current filtering  
>>>> of information and the writing of history by the winners". Rather  
>>>> I saw support for Wikipedia. Where did this come from?
>>>>
>>>> 4) Perhaps I am merely clueless but I don't see how his specific  
>>>> profession provides any clue to his viewpoint.
>>>>
>>>> Please help me out here.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 23, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I generally find that people who criticise but don't offer an  
>>>>> alternative have a grudge and therefore to be put in one box to  
>>>>> be balanced as others are likewise accessed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely it's up to each and every one of us to verify the facts  
>>>>> we seek and in doing so learn accordingly: Nothing should be  
>>>>> taken on face value.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would he prefer the current filtering of information and the  
>>>>> writing of history by the winners to remain as our only sources?
>>>>>
>>>>> His profession should give a clue to viewpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stefan
>>>>>
>>>>> On 23 Oct 2008, at 13:24, Frank wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Listm
>>>>>> http://www.technologyreview.com/web/21558/?nlid=1452&a=f
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any comments?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Wood
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ===================================================
>>>>
>>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>> 757-692-6673
>>>>
>>>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it....  
>>>> Do small things with great love."
>>>>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>>>>
>>>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>>>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>>>
>>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>>>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ===================================================
>>
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 757-692-6673
>>
>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
>> small things with great love."
>>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>>
>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>
>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
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>> Virus Database (VPS): 081023-0, 23/10/2008
>> Tested on: 24/10/2008 10:35:50
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>>
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