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Ha

This thread is beginning to take on the resonances of a Terry Pratchett novel - I believe the latest is called Truth..... The Kuhn Popper debate is wonderful in illustrating the fallacy of establishing an obectivty which stays objective for all time - we simply have a series of paradigms that have verisimilitude or truth content. After that, well its a reality reference matrix - what we are capable of "seeing" is dependent on our belief systems and instrumentation and even the architecture of our sensory systems. Is there any truth that is non consensual - its an interesting question and one addressed three decades ago by John C Lilly who came up with the notion of simulations of God.... If truth is contextual as well as consensual then the whole system - ie life the universe and everything has to be incorporated into the framework - anything that doesnt..is  a simulation. That is - a model which doesnt have all the information necessary to decribe every detail. I guess this is where we came in.... We are dealing with simulations and wondering how to create turning points where our information is imperfect to say the least...Maybe in the long run it is those who can make the most effective short cuts to sustainable change who might save us in the end.....the "truth" might have to wait...

Steve



From: Roger Harnden
Sent: Thu 23/10/2008 16:33
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth


All truth is consensual . That;s what Thomas Kuhn and Karl Popper (not to mention Maturana) established. 


Can anyone point to a truth that is not consensual???


So, what's new?? The only thing that is new - as is the case with the world banking/financial crisis, is that the Emperor's clothes are missing and we can see his goolies.


This applies to notions of 'truth' or notions of 'accountability' or, indeed, 'democracy and freedom'.


Wikipedia rules, whether we like it or not, and I do.




For example,  follow stuff to do with cybernetics etc. For example, though there are inaccuracies about the VSM entry, any other us can do something about them should we wish. And, anyway, even with the inaccuracies, the LINKS on that entry are a fantastic start for anyone interested to learn something about VSM, far better than anything I had access to when I started a PhD in cybernetics.


Roger


On 23 Oct 2008, at 16:01, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:


I generally find that people who criticise but don't offer an alternative have a grudge and therefore to be put in one box to be balanced as others are likewise accessed. 


Surely it's up to each and every one of us to verify the facts we seek and in doing so learn accordingly: Nothing should be taken on face value.


Would he prefer the current filtering of information and the writing of history by the winners to remain as our only sources?


His profession should give a clue to viewpoint.


Stefan
  

On 23 Oct 2008, at 13:24, Frank wrote:


Dear Listm
http://www.technologyreview.com/web/21558/?nlid=1452&a=f

Any comments?

Regards

Frank Wood
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