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Joe,

My understanding  (following structural determinism), is that of  
course mind is structurally constrained constrained. But the  
mischievous thing is that one of it's emergent properties is the  
illusion of structural freedom. And VSM etc all warn us against such  
illusions (including that of 'freedom of the markets'). Hence  
structural coupling, variety engineering, recursion and so on.

And also all the cautions of people like Wittgenstein and Maturana,  
for us to bear in mind that 'of that which we cannot speak we must  
remain silent'.

I don't follow your 'technical' stuff but it feels OK. And I'm sure  
that you would refuse that it is 'technical' - which is OK.

Anyway glad you are there,

Roger


On 13 Oct 2008, at 20:33, Roger Harnden wrote:

> Beautiful, Joe,
>
> Though I still don't get it,
>
> Roger
> On 13 Oct 2008, at 20:21, Joseph Truss wrote:
>
>> Hi Roger (et al),
>>
>> Thanks for the warm inclusion.  I may have been without voice but  
>> not without eyes.  I follow this discussion carefully, sometimes in  
>> spurts, always with amazement.  I'd even say with 'awe' but then  
>> I'd have to explain all that meta stuff.
>> I've written three times without posting, my output is usually  
>> overwhelmed by the group's input, with no criticism of e-mail vs.  
>> groupnet as I find this mode quite variety satisficing. I just  
>> can't write as fast as I think and I can't think as fast as you all  
>> write!
>> So I’m now provoking my own thoughts in past response to Roger H’s  
>> continued use of and coherent references to the orthogonality of  
>> intersecting phenomena. Nature is underwritten by structure, not  
>> reality. Structure is attention to process. The Nautilus shell does  
>> not follow the rules of Fibonnacci, it's Fibonnacci-ness comes from  
>> growth and accretion of structure.
>>  Not accounting for the Planck scale dimensions, which add another  
>> six or seven dimensions depending on which string theory you  
>> choose, we inhabit 3 spatial dimensions orthogonal to each other  
>> (the time dimension as they say is another matter).
>> As Nick G knows, the ‘orthogonal sets’ of the TS icosahedron are in  
>> the configuration of  Borromean Rings. (Nick might be kind enough  
>> to explain his and Pask’s take on the significance of the Borromean  
>> Rings).  What I’ve discovered is that the icosahedron, which  
>> exhibits the requisite range of degrees of freedom for ‘infinite’  
>> structural expansion (as in the geodesic dome), requires five  
>> Borromean ring configurations.  Two of these ring configurations  
>> can be removed.  The removal of each results in less inter- 
>> connected but coherent structures. However, if a third one is  
>> removed the structure loses its coherence and separates into two  
>> halves.
>> Even concepts created in the mind are constrained by nature’s  
>> geometry as the brain’s very configuration is structure dependent  
>> and so too do neuronal firings become. (I think the brain is  
>> necessary but not sufficient condition to explain mind). To the  
>> mind in the brain the structure of Borromean Rings might not be  
>> perceived as geometry, although it might be understood as the  
>> consequence of three separate conceptual thought dimensions that  
>> are structurally interrelated and bound together although no two  
>> are directly linked.  At the quantum level The Borromean rings are  
>> implicated in the ‘entanglement’ of atomic particles which is to  
>> say the scale of the model is not just human.
>> The future is an emergent anastomotic reticulum braided with our  
>> every thought, act, and interaction with-in and with-out our selves  
>> in the ever present now. The present is the collapsing wave of past  
>> reticula that constrain the probabilities of future options.
>> Since our lives are lived in the ever present now and our pasts are  
>> anastonomic reticula, not only can we not predict where we are  
>> going in the future, we do not even know how we got here from our  
>> own past. Isn’t humanity’s problem essentially spiritual?
>>
>>
>> And each reincarnation is the first.
>>
>> Abrazos!
>>
>>
>> Joseph Truss
>> Abbey North Drummers
>> Open Futures
>> Team Syntegrity AG
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 2:15:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: Coerced Capitalism
>>
>> Nice to hear your voice, Joe. And your incisive advice!!
>>
>> How's things,
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Roger
>> On 13 Oct 2008, at 18:52, Joseph Truss wrote:
>>
>>> Just please stay away from 'second order capitalism'!
>>>
>>> Joseph Truss
>>> Abbey North Drummers
>>> Open Futures
>>> Team Syntegrity AG
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Ern Reynolds <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:00:21 PM
>>> Subject: Coerced Capitalism
>>>
>>> Try "coerced capitalism" as a descriptor.
>>>
>>> Ern Reynolds
>>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:07:57 +0700 Maurice Yolles <[log in to unmask] 
>>> > writes:
>>> I am not sure I am happy with the term Authoritarian Capitalism  
>>> from an ideological perspective. Perhaps Regulated Capitalism is  
>>> better, but then the same problems emerge no matter what it is  
>>> called, that of pathological processes. It is of course such  
>>> pathologies that allowed the unconstrained excesses of capitalist  
>>> processes to develop.
>>>
>>> So, whatever model one uses, the problem of the development of  
>>> pathologies needs to be addressed.
>>>
>>> Maurice
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:18 PM, R Clemens <[log in to unmask]>  
>>> wrote:
>>> I liked Taeb's views (and I referred to the Black Swan in  
>>> Metaphorum 2008 -- in any case, I live in the black swan river  
>>> colony) but I did not get the shirt-to-food thing either.
>>>
>>> I see less need for multiple banks -- short term efficiency  
>>> (hmmm?) vs longer term lack of efficacy. I think we can see  
>>> 'capitalism' and its associated innovations as a process that has  
>>> largely run its course -- not an end state in itself. Most  
>>> governance systems -- from participative democracy through to  
>>> banking operations -- can be much more efficient with modern  
>>> communications technology. I qualify capitalism because I agree  
>>> with the view that we do not have it any more in any case --  
>>> rather we have some hybrid condition.
>>>
>>> Hence, in my opinion, the phrase "21 Century Socialism" used by  
>>> Chavez as a fuzzy handle on where he was headed. I am watching him  
>>> and Putin and communist China to see what they are going to do  
>>> with all the 'rope' they just bought on credit. (ref Marx/Lenin).  
>>> I see Russia is now talking with Iceland. A nice straight line on  
>>> the voyage down to South America. Another weak signal I'm waiting  
>>> for (to satisfy my S4 hypothesis) will be the 'liberation' of the  
>>> Falkland Islands! "Authoritarian Capitalism" is another phrase  
>>> that has been seen lately.
>>>
>>> Al Q: -- I doubt they are doing anything (assuming they actually  
>>> exist outside Hollywood studios). No need to. If the 'twin towers'  
>>> snake bite of 9/11 (which was a direct symbolic link to 11/Sept'73  
>>> in Chile, for those who care to see it) can be interpreted as  
>>> having affected the 'Brain of the Firm' (aka GWB et al) then we  
>>> can now perhaps see the poison affecting the'Heart of the  
>>> Enterprise'. Always remembering that time frames at higher  
>>> recursion levels might mean that 5-years on our scale is somewhat  
>>> less on a higher scale. What next? Anyones guess -- Decision and  
>>> Control? That is what I liked about Taleb's audio -- he was  
>>> focused on the dangers of using maths etc to obscure the fact that  
>>> we just don't know some things (and that truth is useful for  
>>> responsible governance).
>>>
>>> Question: How much of this UK money is in Iceland to escape  
>>> taxation etc? And how much of it (and other vast imaginary hordes  
>>> of it) are the actual proceeds of the criminal sub-prime lending  
>>> asset inflation bubble? If these so called savings are actually  
>>> just the virtual memories and book entries of transactions within  
>>> the credit bubble system -- then why should they be guaranteed?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 11/10/08, Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>  
>>> wrote:
>>> From: Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Taleb
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Received: Saturday, 11 October, 2008, 3:07 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Taleb has just appeared on BBC2 Newsnight. Some of the points he  
>>> made are probably right but in talking about "not being able to  
>>> learn from the past" he talks about past crises. Paradox.
>>>
>>> In our terms a large transient corresponds to a rare event (John  
>>> Waters and I were just talking about infinite impulse response,  
>>> modelling and estimating models). VSM is better than Taleb alone  
>>> would suggest- even though he is Mr Time Series Analysis in many  
>>> respects.
>>>
>>> "How do you analyse a system?" I once said to Stafford back in the  
>>> seventies. "Perturb it" he said. So we have the transient  
>>> perturbation, the slope and step response of management. We would  
>>> quickly find out something was wrong because we were measuring it  
>>> in real time. The current problem seems to stem from the fact that  
>>> the exposed risks weren't known (and we're not talking about rare  
>>> events here).  Insuring depositors seems to be the right recovery  
>>> strategy- as in so many professions removing perverse incentives  
>>> seems to be the ultimate cure. That means more accountability-  
>>> Taleb's remarks about Medicine (in the mp3) are particularly  
>>> poignant there (doctors have few cures but plenty of remedies that  
>>> can injure). I must say Taleb's remarks (on Newsnight) about  
>>> mounting complexity seemed insufficient and the idea that buying a  
>>> shirt (made in China) puts up the price of protein was obscure to  
>>> me if not plain wild can anyone explain? Could this be one of  
>>> Stafford's rubbish correlations? Mind you all events are at least  
>>> weakly correlated.
>>>
>>> One thing is for sure speculators agreements to trade exist and  
>>> can be analysed. Some are sitting, silently, on piles of cash,  
>>> some are shaking in their boots with no cash. Who are they? For  
>>> all we know Al Qaeda just found a better way to destroy infidel  
>>> civilization other than by bombing.
>>>
>>> Too much apocalyptic talk when all we need to do is firmly reform  
>>> world Terms of Trade with the aim of Justice for producers and  
>>> consumers through greater accountability: what products actually  
>>> are, their provenance and, possibly, end user certificates. Indeed  
>>> real time reporting on the web of how producers perform was  
>>> recommended by International Auditors two years ago http://cybsoc.org/#realt
>>>
>>> There was a time when as serfs we had to go the landlords house to  
>>> bake bread, use a blacksmith and even suckle his children. Do we  
>>> need centralized banks anymore in real-time webworld? They seem to  
>>> be standing in the way of Fair Trade.
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> N.
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>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Professor Dr. Maurice Yolles
>>> Centre for the Creation of Coherent Change & Knowledge (C4K)
>>> [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
>>> http://www.ljmu.ac.uk/c4k
>>> International Journal of Organisational Transformation and Social  
>>> Change
>>> http://www.intellectbooks.com/
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