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On 2 Oct 2008, at 05:07, Nick Green wrote:

It's gotta be Open Software MySQL etc and gotta run wherever there is a numeric data stream being updated. Then take it from there. Nothing wrong with starting with Sales but any list of transactions can get things going. It takes a serious look at doing the Whole of Government to say that. Believe me.
 
Best
 
N.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Stefan Wasilewski
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

snap: 

Will look at a couple of products and revert tomorrow to give an idea of my thoughts. but one is PersonalBrain 4.5.1.5 bMac MindMap product that has industry connectivity and a SDK that allows integration. There are more.

Stefan

On 1 Oct 2008, at 20:53, Garderen, Harold van wrote:

Gents,

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid most regular ERP implementations don't contain the type of information one needs to build a VSM on. Data is often restricted to logistics operations, even if the scope contains sales, after-sales, etc. Marketing, R&D, HR, etc are missing 100% in most cases.

Even worse, data-warehouses are always a source of misintepretation. Hence the booming but ill-fated rise of BI tools and consulting-like services.

I suggest to approach the problem from the other side: what small process/system/training combi can be introduced (like Adobe has done with the Reader) to spread VSM practice widely despite the existance of large behemoths like Oracle and SAP?

With kind regards,

Harold van Garderen | OcÚ-Technologies B.V. | Senior Services Researcher | Document Services Valley
Postbus 101, 5900 MA Venlo | St. Urbanusweg 43 | The Netherlands
T +31 (0) 77 359 2446 | M +31 (0) 6 532 94 325 | G 6258 |  [log in to unmask] |  www.oce.nl |  Trade register 12002662


-----Original Message-----
From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of 
Leonid Ototsky
Sent: woensdag 1 oktober 2008 21:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

Stefan,
Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !
But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as a 
superstructure above the ERP ??

Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it




Guys

I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but for a 
completely 
different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really 
around to the 
depth they are now.

Both are not software providers but consultants with little 
interest 
in support bespoke systems. What's more they're hegemony 
with all that 
goes wrong with such things.

There are better systems that allow the VSM to be embedded and use 
redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for local 
parameters to 
be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so creating 
recursiveness etc.

Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is 
about to change.

Just a thought

Stefan

On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:

Dear Leonid,

       This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you did mean 
"integration" rather than "syntegration".

       Oracle is a large scale database management system for 
enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in the US and 
especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf, Germany.

       If Oracle does not choose to furnish some 
corporate funding 
for your idea then SAP might.

       As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on seeing his 
VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should be 
no barrier 
to us.

       Four related points of caution.  (a) My own experience in 
expressing the VSM in software (using the insight modeling 
/ decision 
support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly 
easier to make 
the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to actually 
work like 
the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM sensitivity 
and nuance 
to get any substantial gains from adding software.

       (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by putting up some 
money, those firms will do so if it looks like a marketing 
opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be an 
outcome that 
merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as the VSM.

       Marketing people are into positioning follow-on 
sales.  When 
the software does not improve operations very much (the far too 
typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the inevitable 
solution suggested is buy more of their product and services.

       (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation 
should dare be 
subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An already robust 
client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a shaky 
operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when the Oracle/ 
SAP cure is tried.

       (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and control of 
whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle or SAP input.
Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM 
capabilities and 
reputation if given half a chance.

Ern Reynolds












On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky 
<[log in to unmask]> writes:
Dear Colleagues.
My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the Newcastle 
Business 
School.
He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle 
Applications. He 
took part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia (Financials 
module) under a Contract with Oracle Russia.
Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an 
integration of 
the VSM with Oracle (the first interest I marked in the 
presentation in 2007
-
http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf (see
Supplement-1)
. A meeting could be organized in the Hull University 
which is near 
to the Newcastle. Except the representatives of the VSM 
community 
and Anatoly there must be some from the Oracle UK as well !!


Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it

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