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On 2 Oct 2008, at 05:07, Nick Green wrote:

> It's gotta be Open Software MySQL etc and gotta run wherever there  
> is a numeric data stream being updated. Then take it from there.  
> Nothing wrong with starting with Sales but any list of transactions  
> can get things going. It takes a serious look at doing the Whole of  
> Government to say that. Believe me.
>
> Best
>
> N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stefan Wasilewski
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
>
> snap:
>
> Will look at a couple of products and revert tomorrow to give an  
> idea of my thoughts. but one is PersonalBrain 4.5.1.5 bMac MindMap  
> product that has industry connectivity and a SDK that allows  
> integration. There are more.
>
> Stefan
>
> On 1 Oct 2008, at 20:53, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
>
>> Gents,
>>
>> I'm sorry, but I'm afraid most regular ERP implementations don't  
>> contain the type of information one needs to build a VSM on. Data  
>> is often restricted to logistics operations, even if the scope  
>> contains sales, after-sales, etc. Marketing, R&D, HR, etc are  
>> missing 100% in most cases.
>>
>> Even worse, data-warehouses are always a source of  
>> misintepretation. Hence the booming but ill-fated rise of BI tools  
>> and consulting-like services.
>>
>> I suggest to approach the problem from the other side: what small  
>> process/system/training combi can be introduced (like Adobe has  
>> done with the Reader) to spread VSM practice widely despite the  
>> existance of large behemoths like Oracle and SAP?
>>
>> With kind regards,
>>
>> Harold van Garderen | OcÚ-Technologies B.V. | Senior Services  
>> Researcher | Document Services Valley
>> Postbus 101, 5900 MA Venlo | St. Urbanusweg 43 | The Netherlands
>> T +31 (0) 77 359 2446 | M +31 (0) 6 532 94 325 | G 6258 |   
>> [log in to unmask] |  www.oce.nl |  Trade register 12002662
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>>> Leonid Ototsky
>>> Sent: woensdag 1 oktober 2008 21:22
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
>>>
>>> Stefan,
>>> Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !
>>> But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as a
>>> superstructure above the ERP ??
>>>
>>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Guys
>>>>
>>>> I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but for a
>>> completely
>>>> different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really
>>> around to the
>>>> depth they are now.
>>>>
>>>> Both are not software providers but consultants with little
>>> interest
>>>> in support bespoke systems. What's more they're hegemony
>>> with all that
>>>> goes wrong with such things.
>>>>
>>>> There are better systems that allow the VSM to be embedded and use
>>>> redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for local
>>> parameters to
>>>> be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so creating
>>>> recursiveness etc.
>>>>
>>>> Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is
>>> about to change.
>>>>
>>>> Just a thought
>>>>
>>>> Stefan
>>>>
>>>> On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Leonid,
>>>>>
>>>>>        This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you did mean
>>>>> "integration" rather than "syntegration".
>>>>>
>>>>>        Oracle is a large scale database management system for
>>>>> enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in the US and
>>>>> especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf, Germany.
>>>>>
>>>>>        If Oracle does not choose to furnish some
>>> corporate funding
>>>>> for your idea then SAP might.
>>>>>
>>>>>        As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on seeing his
>>>>> VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should be
>>> no barrier
>>>>> to us.
>>>>>
>>>>>        Four related points of caution.  (a) My own experience in
>>>>> expressing the VSM in software (using the insight modeling
>>> / decision
>>>>> support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly
>>> easier to make
>>>>> the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to actually
>>> work like
>>>>> the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM sensitivity
>>> and nuance
>>>>> to get any substantial gains from adding software.
>>>>>
>>>>>        (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by putting up some
>>>>> money, those firms will do so if it looks like a marketing
>>>>> opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be an
>>> outcome that
>>>>> merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as the VSM.
>>>>>
>>>>>        Marketing people are into positioning follow-on
>>> sales.  When
>>>>> the software does not improve operations very much (the far too
>>>>> typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the inevitable
>>>>> solution suggested is buy more of their product and services.
>>>>>
>>>>>        (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation
>>> should dare be
>>>>> subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An already robust
>>>>> client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a shaky
>>>>> operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when the Oracle/
>>>>> SAP cure is tried.
>>>>>
>>>>>        (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and control of
>>>>> whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle or SAP  
>>>>> input.
>>>>> Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM
>>> capabilities and
>>>>> reputation if given half a chance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ern Reynolds
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky
>>> <[log in to unmask]> writes:
>>>>>> Dear Colleagues.
>>>>>> My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the Newcastle
>>> Business
>>>>>> School.
>>>>>> He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle
>>> Applications. He
>>>>>> took part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia (Financials
>>>>>> module) under a Contract with Oracle Russia.
>>>>>> Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an
>>> integration of
>>>>>> the VSM with Oracle (the first interest I marked in the
>>>>>> presentation in 2007
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf (see
>>>>>> Supplement-1)
>>>>>> . A meeting could be organized in the Hull University
>>> which is near
>>>>>> to the Newcastle. Except the representatives of the VSM
>>> community
>>>>>> and Anatoly there must be some from the Oracle UK as well !!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>>>>
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