Print

Print


I suspect that one area of confusion / miscommunication between two
disciplines (if I can use that term pretty loosely) is that "information" is
being mixed up with "data". Information implies (actually it states it) the
construction / maintenance of form, so patterns. Data in debased modern
usage means just "things" often numbers. Its proper meaning is a fixed
reference point, but since in organisations, its rarely connected to any
structural reference point, most "data" is just free-floating in a sort of
managerial space, waiting to be plucked out of the air and used for any
purpose that seems helpful, even if the data has no real relevance. 

I suspect that when Dave Snowden is talking about information processing, he
doesn't mean information processing (which is the building and maintenance /
re-creation of patterns) I suspect he's actually thinking of shoving chunks
of "data" down tubes, wires or synapses. Which of course we aren't - big
assumption there, at least I'm not. Same words, totally different meaning.

 

  _____  

From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Joseph Truss
Sent: 29 October 2008 21:57
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Snowden & Cybermen

 

Stefan, thank you.  This is helpful.  
In terms of my own narrative (and limited understanding), when Einstein
realized that 3 Dimensions did not meet the requirements of relativity the
4th Dimension of Time was added to the 3 'existing' Spatial Dimensions.  The
science of the day didn't need 4-Dimensional math to calculate its perceived
reality.  Time has no physical existence and Space without Time is
meaningless. Enter Spacetime.   In the Standard Model time has no enforced
or required direction. The equations all work whether you run time forward
or backward.  Information as statistical expression, or as 'that which
changes us', takes on a different physical attribution in quantum physics.
(http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/1658).  In the trinity of
inter-transformable Energy / Matter / Information, it is not only that one
can convert the entire universe into bit-carrying chunks and thus have a
quantifiable 'information space' with an information limit based on the
capacity of the cosmic hard-drive. From the attached article:  "The
important new observation is that information is not independent of the
physical laws used to store and process it (see Landauer in further
reading)".
Even if the brain processes 'blends and patterns' are these not just
aggregates of information?  Is information not a fractal phenomenon?
Information is surely requisite for pattern recognition, isn't it?  Anyway
my geometric intuition keeps me from accepting triadic wholes and I would
add Time to the above trinity and have four inter-transformable aspects:
E/M/I/T.

 

Joseph Truss
Abbey North Drummers
Open Futures
Team Syntegrity AG

 

 

  _____  

From: Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:32:01 AM
Subject: Re: Snowden & Cybermen

Harold

 

I'm reminded of 'does the tree exist if there's no-one to there to hear it
fall?'. I'm closer to Shannon and Weaver than MacKay because whilst I agree
it is the impact that proves information definitely existed it doesn't mean
it doesn't exist or that subsequent impacts weren't biased by the
availability of the information as a context when another more key decision
needs to be made (am open to debate on the philosphy of the original
information).

 

Equally if you take the meme approach it is the order of and the presence of
elements in a process that is important (3-D and Time) and therefore if a
gene is information it too relies on presence and order in time to make an
impact.

 

I've been steadily going through Dave's C-E website, papers, listening to
his podcasts, and slowly coming to the conclusion that the VSM has a key
role to play and has not 'moved on' because it didn't need to nor did Newton
as he adequately explains things to the average man's frame of reference  to
all practical purposes.

 

All who can bring light onto raw data (disintermediation is good here) and
proper reporting (disintermediation is good here) have a role to play in
getting a better understanding of the role System Theory (whatever name you
want) has to play in governing the world we see and the way we want to see
it going forward.

 

The VSM doesn't need to worry about emergence to my view as it is a map not
the real thing and a guide to what's needed, that things emerge and are
sustainable over time should be a shock what is curious is that the all have
consistent functional structures that look like the VSM (avec autopoesis) .
Equally the role of the communication network within the VSM, with its own
meta-level decision requirement, leaves a lot to be explored especially when
considering cellular automata and quantum resonance.

 

Regards 

 

Stefan

 

On 29 Oct 2008, at 11:28, Garderen, Harold van wrote:





Interesting perspective Dave gives on Cybernetics. In my view the post WW-II
Macy conferences have ended in the split between the "AI" people that
believed that information had value on its own and that also popularized the
idea that human can be augmented as is/was often popularized in SciFi.

 

To illustrate the OTHER view I copy here two para's of a forthcoming
publication that I'm currently writing:

 

Where Shannon and Weaver [7] in their famous Information Theory defined
information as a statistical entity, in terms of what it is, Donald Mackay
[8] argued during the early stages of the Macy Conferences that only signals
that brought about a change in the recipient contained information. Thus
Mackay defined information in terms of what is does. It is clear that
Shannon and Weaver have fully convinced the technological audience while,
with hindsight, Mackay can be placed as belonging to the realm of social
studies where this view on information had been commonly accepted already
since the 19th century.

 

We, the beneficiaries of the latest "information technology blessings",
again start to realize that Mackay was right. In a world where one is
flooded with meaningless bits and pieces, it is not so hard anymore to
reverse ones' opinion and embrace the view that that whole kluge [9] of air-
controlled basements, servers, mainframes, storage racks, cabling, switches,
connections, protocols, filters, streams, files, applications and screens
are just holders, carriers and presenters of endless tides of meaningless
data that convey no significance unless we, humans, enact it, construct and
attach meaning and find ourselves changed in the process. Then, and only
then, communication has been accomplished. 

I still hold some form of hope that Mackay's view will become so popular
that it really will get some impact. If that happens the word Cybernetics
will get a whole new meaning. IF HOWEVER we should forget about the word and
adopt a new one to make it happen I suggest that we drop the word :-)

 

Finally, I find it quite hard to point down where in the VSM way of thinking
the concept of  "emergence" that Dave is often referring to can come forward
when working with the VSM. In that sense I think Dave is right when he says
the world has moved on. Another view could be that "emergence" was/is such
in integral property of VSM inspired work that I missed it. Anyway making
that property (if it is included) more prominent again might help bridging
the "good old work" to "todays interests". 

 

So far my 2 cents.

 

Harold


  _____  


From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of R Clemens
Sent: woensdag 29 oktober 2008 11:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Snowden & Cybermen


FYI -- see below

--- On Wed, 29/10/08, Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Snowden & Cybermen
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Received: Wednesday, 29 October, 2008, 6:47 PM

The problem with the word is that stems back to information processing
models of the human brain, something common to a long of systems dynamics
(and more generally systems thinking).   Cognitive science has moved on from
that time and we now know the brain does not process information, but
instead blends and activates patterns (that is a gross simplification but
you get the point).  The irony is that this allows for humans to be
augmented by technology, but points to natural limits in that technology.
As I have said in several of our conversations, the agenda have moved on.
We all owe a great debt to Beer et al, as quantum mechanics owes a debt to
Newton.

 

 

Dave Snowden

Founder & Chief Scientific Officer

Cognitive Edge Pte Ltd

 

Now blogging at www.cognitive-edge.com

 

 

On 28 Oct 2008, at 12:49, R Clemens wrote:






Dr Snowden

The BBC series Dr Who has played an important part in forming the public
mind over the last 40 years. 

You mention not liking the word "cybernetics", and I note that one of the
evil archetypal characters in the series is known as 'Cybermen'. 

It has been suggested the head dress of these BBC characters looks similar
to Stafford Beer's VSM diagram.  In checking the Wikipedia site I note
specific mention to Norbert Weiner and also, interestingly, to a negative St
Pancras crowd reaction to a public presentation of the character in the
streets. (* see below)

Given your comment below "...and cybernetics (which I don't like as a
word)..." do you think there is a hurdle here in expecting a neutral
response from (a) people/public; (b) management; and (c) other
professionals, who, like yourself may become exposed to the management
cybernetics of Stafford Beer?

If so, do have any free advice to give on what might enhance contemporary
'coupling capacity' with Stafford Beer's VSM? 

regards
Russell

(p.s. if you wish to respond, please email me & I will post it to the
Listserv for others to read -- as we seem to have certain technical
considerations in place stopping non-members submitting responses directly
at this time.)


History


Conceptual history


The name "Cyberman" comes from cybernetics
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics> , a term coined in Norbert Wiener
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener> 's book Cybernetics or Control
and Communication in the Animal and the Machine (MIT Press, 1948). Wiener
used the term in reference to the control of complex systems in the animal
world and in mechanical networks, in particular self-regulating control
systems. By 1960, doctors were performing research into surgically or
mechanically augmenting humans or animals to operate machinery in space,
leading to the coining of the term "cyborg", for "cybernetic organism".

 

In the 1960s, "spare-part" surgery was starting out, with the first,
gigantic heart-lung machines being developed. There were also serious
suggestions of wiring the nerve endings of amputees directly into machines
for quicker response.[5] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberman#cite_note-4>
In 1963, Kit Pedler had a conversation with his wife (who was also a doctor)
about what would happen if a person had so many prostheses that they could
no longer distinguish themselves between man and machine. He got the
opportunity to develop this idea when, in 1966, after an appearance on the
BBC science programmes Tomorrow's World
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_World>  and Horizon
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_%28BBC_TV_series%29> , the BBC hired
him to help on the Doctor Who serial The War Machines
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Machines> . That eventually led to him
writing, with Gerry Davis's help, The Tenth Planet for Doctor Who.

 

Pedler, influenced by the logic-driven Treens
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treens>  from the Dan Dare
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Dare>  comic strip, originally envisaged
the Cybermen as "space monks", but was persuaded by Davis to concentrate on
his fears about the direction of spare-part surgery. The original Cybermen
were imagined as human, but with plastic and metal prostheses. The Cybermen
of The Tenth Planet still have human hands, and their facial structures are
visible beneath the masks they wear. However, over time, they evolved into
metallic, more robot-like designs.

 

The Cybermen attracted controversy when parents complained after a scene in
The Tomb of the Cybermen in which a dying Cyberman spurted white foam from
its innards. Another incident was initiated by Pedler himself, who took a
man in a Cyberman costume into a busy shopping area of St. Pancras
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Pancras,_London> . The reaction of the
public was predictable, and the crowd almost blocked the street and the
police were called in. Pedler said that he "wanted to know how people would
react to something quite unusual," but also admitted that he "wanted to be a
nuisance."[6] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberman#cite_note-5>  Pedler
wrote his last Cyberman story, The Invasion, in 1968, and left Doctor Who
with Gerry Davis to develop the scientific thriller series Doomwatch
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomwatch> .

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberman)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberman%29>  


 


--- On Mon, 27/10/08, Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Snowden Dave <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Snowden
To: "Garderen, Harold van" <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Received: Monday, 27 October, 2008, 8:49 PM

Thanks Harold and nice to see you engaged.  I haven't got time to write an
essay but a couple of points: 

- I think aspects of Beer apply to the complicated domain of cynefin

- I think the complex space needs managing, its not just leaving it alone or
assuming that a community of interest (more complicated) will solve it.
More techniques like SNS, but also specific actions to vary constraints and
connectivity.  The difference is a solution will be emergent and unique and
will not fit in a model

- Stuart (had dinner with him a few months ago) more important the V/M I
think, his latest badly written book has some real insights in it.

- If Beer was around today he would be into (and would understand)
complexity and cybernetics (which I don't like as a word) would be a
different place

And yes, we need to do some very different things if the world is to survive
in any humane form - just blogging that

 

 

Dave Snowden

Founder & Chief Scientific Officer

Cognitive Edge Pte Ltd

 

Now blogging at www.cognitive-edge.com

 

 

On 27 Oct 2008, at 08:40, Garderen, Harold van wrote:





Hi Russell,

 

First of all "yes" I meant "his work". 

 

What I meant to say about "nestedness" is that the Cynefin model suggests
that the "hard/intractible problems" are situated in the complexity domain
(upper left corner, forgive me Dave :-) ) and can be treated (or at least
tried to) by a group of "interested" people, a community of interest so to
say. Ofcourse these people come from their respective parts/departments or
groups in- or outside the organization and a such they are from different
"nests", but not on the sense of "nestedness". 

 

What I meant with prescribing is that Dave never/hardly? prescribes while
Beer explicitely models organizations in a nested way with the resource
bargain as part of the disussion while forming a lower recursion. I'm not
sure it will help, as Dave seems to assume that once such a CoInterest is
formed they are given the resources (f.e. time) to work on the problem.

 

Knowing the Dave is regularly involved in treating (or at least consulting
for) problem that have to do with improving humanity, I have copied him in
with this email. As far as I know, Dave knows about the Varela/Maturana work
and about Stuart Kaufmann's work too. The latter might be as important as
the last.

 

Harold

 


  _____  


From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:] On Behalf Of R
Clemens
Sent: zondag 26 oktober 2008 23:54
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Snowden


Dear Harold,

Thank you for this positive view. I think you are right about the potential
here -- for both sides of the coin (and for humanity as well, without trying
to save the world!). I will pass on the very nice term "Beer proof" (with
attribution) to Dave --  I'm sure it will enter the lexicon down the track.
;-)

With Dave, on this matter, I have used the idea of "conceptual coupling" (as
per Maturana & Varela) as a reconciling of certain S5 issues in operation --
and I hypothesis, if both models/approaches are real, from real identities,
then it is accord with the VSM , and polite society, to follow this route.

Question: how do you think "prescribing nested forms of organization" in
Dave's work would help (a) his work; and (b) coupling?  I'm thinking of how
to broach the topic with him. At the moment I've just used the term "Black
box" to describe my interpretation of his way of dealing with the issue. 

regards
Russell 

p.s. I assume your "I would really encourage he work to be integrated in
these discussions." should read "I would really encourage his work to be
integrated in these discussions."-- is this correct?

--- On Mon, 27/10/08, Garderen, Harold van <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

From: Garderen, Harold van <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Snowden
To: [log in to unmask]
Received: Monday, 27 October, 2008, 6:45 AM

Friends,

 

That is right, Dave's view is in no aspect at odds with Staffords'. That is
a rare thing today. I think Dave is one of the few contemporary management
thinkers that can be regarded as "Beer-proof" today. In particular his
Cynefin model (see paper section of mentioned website) can be seen as
covering most of the dynamic features Beer has put into the VSM.

 

On the other hand Dave's work is not so structured as Beers' VSM. Cynefin
isn't prescribing nested forms of organization. In fact is doesn't say
anything about organizational form whatsoever. 

 

I would really encourage he work to be integrated in these discussions. Not
only contentwise, but also because Dave is succesful and booming. An
"integration" (hope the word doesn't convey to many wrong meanings here)
could speed up the broadening of interest for the VSM in my view.

 

With kind regards,

 

Harold

 


  _____  


From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of R Clemens
Sent: zondag 26 oktober 2008 14:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Snowden


Roger

If you are interested this link is Snowden speaking in Melbourne before he
came through Perth recently. Careful listening will show that he covers many
of the VSM aspects -- at least I cannot find any conflict with it.

http://www.cognitive-edge.com/podcasts/WS330063.mp3



--- On Sat, 25/10/08, R Clemens <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: R Clemens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Snowden
To: "Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer"
<[log in to unmask]>
Received: Saturday, 25 October, 2008, 10:00 AM


Roger: 

It is discursive and digressive and as the Irish would say (I assume): to be
sure to be sure, I'd have to tell a longish story about the truth as I see
it myself. 

However, in summary:

Dave Snowden is a very well informed Welshman I came across in my studies of
scenarios etc some years ago because of his writings on the use of narrative
while he worked in IBM (through a company merger). 

He is now one of the originators of the new field of Knowledge Management.
He is an expert in complexity science and its application to management
practice. We are trialling his approach Cynefin framework
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin) and software called SenseMaker at my
department. (see http://www.sensemaker-suite.com/)
<http://www.sensemaker-suite.com/%29>  -- e.g. 

"It is a pre-hypothesis based research tool, a knowledge repository and a
decision support system in one coherent package." 

 

The approach emerges from a foundation in complex adaptive systems theory,
cognitive sciences and narrative & anthropology.
(http://www.sensemaker-suite.com/concept.htm)


He was in Perth for a day en-route Melbourne-Singapore, and I was host. 

He appears both as academic and businessman. He has strong opinions on many
things -- one of which is that Stafford Beer's model of the brain and the
VSM are wrong -- or at least out of date. [There are strong S5 issues at
work here] 

He does not have a cybernetic or systems orientation although I need to be
careful here. Ralph D Stacey (Complexity & Creativity in Organizations)
would appear to be someone Snowden is aligned with. He did degrees in
Philosophy & Physics. 

Don't lose sleep over it. I find it interesting and useful to synergise both
SB & DS views (and one or two others). I mentioned at Metaphoruim 2008 (last
slide) that I/we were planning to trial SenseMaker as a follow-on from our
scenario work.  After some extended email discussions (you think these are
long!) - I tortured him enough to consider it theoretically possible to use
his SenseMaker approach to verify the VSM hypothesis. 

To try this I now need to develop the right set of signifiers (a term he
uses that is more than tagging) to show there are five interwoven systems
and cultures at work (i.e. S1 thru S5). I would hope for some help from
people here when the time comes (and it is coming very soon now). I have an
organisation of N=1,000 approx. It is most likely to be chopped into three. 

p.s. I'm not selling his approach or methods or theory -- I'm testing it (a)
in practice at work; and (b) in theory here with the VSM. Whereas VSM is a
'dead duck' in respect to local  management interest Snowden's approach is
rapidly gaining traction. I see his SenseMaker primarily as a S3* tool --
but it also has wider application I think. I have just had two university
schools (one business management/leadership and the other Sustainability
policy and practice) become quite interested in his SenseMaker as a research
tool. 

Oh, I should add, he has a following as well! ... ;-)

If you want some samples of him speaking then try here:
http://www.cognitive-edge.com/podcasts.php

--- end of discursive field notes -----



--- On Sat, 25/10/08, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
To: [log in to unmask]
Received: Saturday, 25 October, 2008, 2:59 AM

Russell. 

 

I'm missing out somewhere. What is the 'Dave Snowden' stuff??

 

Roger

On 24 Oct 2008, at 14:24, R Clemens wrote:






Yes, I am still writing out my 10,000 lines on the blackboard: "Discursive
is bad!" ... Not sure it's going to work though ... ;-)p


 

What Frank wrote, I responded to. What he meant, I can only surmise. Whether
it reflects Bloor, I can only take his opinion.


 


 


 

--- WARNING: Do Not Read Further If You Wish To Avoid Discursiveness ---

 

 

 


 

*	Reliable Knowledge: "Statements about truth must be viewed
skeptically. Rather than state something as "true," the following phrase
should be used: "On the evidence available today the balance of probability
favors the view that..."." ( V. Gordon Childe, Man Makes Himself, 1936)


 

*	Religious meaning of knowledge: "The Old Testament's Tree of
Knowledge of Good and Evil contained the knowledge that separated Man from
God: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know
good and evil. " (Genesis 3:22)"


 

(Source: both in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)


 

Why am I there in the Wiki? Well it's a story for another time perhaps, but,
in short, well medium-long, I've just spent a busy day studying a strange
complex species called "Dave Snowden" at work in the field - hence arriving
at "Knowledge Management" is the same Wiki-reference area to quotes above
(while I read this email from Frank). 


 

In my opinion, what Snowden is doing is 100% cybernetics (as per autopoietic
definition explained to me by Luc) and his approach - including SenseMaker -
is one very powerful tool to use. Watch this space! 


 

I believe it can cover audit/feedback, boundaries (or lack of them),
algedonic links (which he calls disintermediation), homeostatic balance, and
inter-recursive level communications issues. In fact, where as VSM gives an
x-ray view, Snowden's complexity approach is very much a 'Blackbox' paradigm
- and management are getting very excited about it. Ultimately it is second
order cybernetics applied to governance praxis. In short, he claims to
synergise quantitative and qualitative methods and data - I think
effectively. 


 

In a note to Angela I said: "There are some identity issues between SB [
Stafford ] & DS which are natural and expected (and explained in VSM and
other models/frameworks).  But this should be celebrated, not seen as a
problem. If SB was the "most viable system" someone knew -- then I'd say DS
must be one of the most 'SB' characters I know (without actually knowing SB
-- rather by sensing from reading and Metaphorum derived insight).


 

If, I'm wrong then shoot me. Now back to the blackboard..


 

-- End of Discursiveness --- 




--- On Fri, 24/10/08, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
To: [log in to unmask]
Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 10:45 PM

Frank, take no notice of Russell - he lives  down under - probably in the
outback  - so all he understands are 'walkabouts' (including those to the
pub, if my memory is correct!). 

 

Serious point. If you look below, I don't think Frank actually said such an
absolute statement. IHe is summarising his understanding of a thesis -
indeed, from the look of it (I don't know the book) quite a sensible one.

 

It is interesting how many of these discussions circle round (without
explicitly acknowledging that they do  the objectivist/relativist debates.

 

The thing I keep trying to say - albeit clumsily - is that I feel that
insights of cybernetic thinking and analysis overcomes many of the problems
that can dog so-called 'post-modernist' discourse. 

 

Roger 

 

PS Russell, in the light of one or two previous irritated comments, I have
to say I feel we are both behaving quite well about keeping stuff  terse!

 

On 24 Oct 2008, at 11:46, Frank wrote:





Ha ha point taken! Sloppy thinking on my part. Nonetheless Bloor makes some
interesting points.

 

Regards

 

Frank Wood

----- Original Message -----

From: R Clemens <mailto:[log in to unmask]> 

To: [log in to unmask]

Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth

 


Re: David Bloor 

The problem I have with these absolutist statements "... there is no such
thing as absolute truth .. " is they are self contradictory.

I once sat through 20 minutes of indoctrination (1:1) by a supposed policy
expert who's thesis was "there are no facts" -- when she'd finished I simple
asked the obvious question -- "Is that a fact?" Session ended rather soon
afterwards.

 

--- On Fri, 24/10/08, Frank <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Frank <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth
To: [log in to unmask]
Received: Friday, 24 October, 2008, 8:58 PM

Just seen the error that Barry made so don't have to make the correction now
:-)

 

Kenneth Patchen said in his novel The Journal of Albion Moonlight "I do not
choose my truths." I disagree. I think we choose our truths in the light of
our culture and the paradigm of our times.

 

This is the point David Bloor made in his book "Knowledge and Social
Imagery". My interpretation of what he said is that there is no such thing
as absolute truth and that truth is dependent on the ongoing paradigm and
nothing changes until the paradigm is broken and then the paradigm breakers
set up the new paradigm.

 

His section The Popper-Kuhn Debate  is an interesting discussion on truth
and the nature of facts.

 

This is a good overview of Bloor's stance.

 

http://www.iit.edu/~schmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/social.pdf
<http://www.iit.edu/%7Eschmaus/Science_and_Values/notes/sociologists/social.
pdf> 

 

Regards

 

Frank Wood

----- Original Message -----

From: BARRY A CLEMSON <mailto:[log in to unmask]> 

To: [log in to unmask]

Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:27 PM

Subject: Re: Wikipedia and the Meaning of Truth

 

Stefan, 

 

Thank  you. It is no wonder I was confused, I didn't see the article by
Simson L Garfinkel and I thought you were talking about Frank.

 

Barry

On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:





Barry (and Frank) 

 

I was addressing the article of Simson L. Garfinkel itself and not Frank at
all, having read the whole thing and the result was my thoughts as below.

 

I believe Roger replied and I agree with him (and Frank) but to reply to
your thought, we should always go into something with the idea of verifying
what we read.

 

Garfinkel is Navy and framed by his environment and this was my thrust in
your point 3. I'm old enough to remember being behind the 'Wall' for long
periods and talking to those of my age that sought 'truth' but who were open
enough to question what was said all along the way: This attitude stayed
with me.

 

Of the times I've had discussion with Frank it was always clear, interesting
and thought provoking, I seldom now respond to anything other.

 

Hope this helps

 

Stefan

 

 

On 23 Oct 2008, at 16:46, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:





Stefan, 

 

I find your comments puzzling and would like clarification. 

 

1) It seems to me that you are saying that Frank has a grudge -- is this
correct? I found his piece to be a thoughtful critique that also was quite
supportive of Wikipedia.

 

2) You say (and I agree) it is up to each of us to verify the facts we seek.
What Frank pointed out very nicely is that we might be blindsided by our
unexamined assumptions. And if we are not even aware of our assumptions
(which is often the case) we are quite thoroughly trapped by them and unable
to check our facts.

 

3) i saw no hint of a suggestion to prefer "the current filtering of
information and the writing of history by the winners". Rather I saw support
for Wikipedia. Where did this come from?

 

4) Perhaps I am merely clueless but I don't see how his specific profession
provides any clue to his viewpoint.

 

Please help me out here.

 

Barry

 

 

On Oct 23, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:





I generally find that people who criticise but don't offer an alternative
have a grudge and therefore to be put in one box to be balanced as others
are likewise accessed. 

 

Surely it's up to each and every one of us to verify the facts we seek and
in doing so learn accordingly: Nothing should be taken on face value.

 

Would he prefer the current filtering of information and the writing of
history by the winners to remain as our only sources?

 

His profession should give a clue to viewpoint.

 

Stefan

  

On 23 Oct 2008, at 13:24, Frank wrote:





Dear Listm

http://www.technologyreview.com/web/21558/?nlid=1452
<http://www.technologyreview.com/web/21558/?nlid=1452&a=f> &a=f

 

Any comments?

 

Regards

 

Frank Wood

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.orgFor the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
-http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 



 

===================================================

 

BARRY A CLEMSON

[log in to unmask]

 

757-692-6673

 

Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com

 

 

 

"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do small
things with great love."

            --- Mother Teresa ---

 

The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated. 

   --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

 

And peace rolled down like a mighty river.

       -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--

 





 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.orgFor the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
-http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
-http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 



 

===================================================

 

BARRY A CLEMSON

[log in to unmask]

 

757-692-6673

 

Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com

 

 

 

"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do small
things with great love."

            --- Mother Teresa ---

 

The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated. 

   --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

 

And peace rolled down like a mighty river.

       -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--

 





 

 


  _____  


avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com> : Inbound message clean.

Virus Database (VPS): 081023-0, 23/10/2008
Tested on: 24/10/2008 10:35:50
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
-http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 


  _____  


Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail
<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/mail/default/*http:/au.yahoo.com/y7
mail> . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.orgMETAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
-http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

 

  _____  

Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail
<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/mail/default/*http:/au.yahoo.com/y7
mail> . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

 

  _____  

Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail
<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/mail/default/*http:/au.yahoo.com/y7
mail> .

 


  _____  


Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail
<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/mail/default/*http:/au.yahoo.com/y7
mail> . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee
and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this communication in error, please notify the sender
immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your
co-operation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum
Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList
available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

 


  _____  


Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail
<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/mail/default/*http:/au.yahoo.com/y7
mail> . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee
and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this communication in error, please notify the sender
immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your
co-operation. 

 

 

  _____  

Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail
<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/mail/default/*http:/au.yahoo.com/y7
mail> .

 

 


  _____  


Search 1000's of available singles in your area at the new Yahoo!7 Dating.
Get Started
<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/dating/mail/tagline1/*http:/au.dating.yahoo.com/?cid
=53151&pid=1011> .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee
and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this communication in error, please notify the sender
immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your
co-operation. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

 

  _____  

 <http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/> All new Yahoo! Mail - Get a
sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~