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Luc,

What do you have to say of the possibilities of governance in/of our modern 
complex societies of millions of people? Surely you ignore the enormous 
attenuation of variety that is implied in  the attenuating operation of 
'national identity'. I am interested to hear your thoughts.

Paul
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Luc Hoebeke" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: failure notice (now criminality)


> Dear all,
>
> Somewhere Stafford wrote or said: big government, big business, big  crime 
> and small government, small business, small crime. I prefer the  last one.
>
> The recursivity principle when really at work does not eliminate  crime, 
> but through the various system 2 and 3* limits its  consequences, when 
> crime can be defined as a threat to the viability  of a living system.
>
> In other words: all what we human beings are able to do is on a human 
> scale. We really get into trouble when we start to do as if sums or 
> aggregates are manageable or governable and delude ourselves that we  are 
> "responsible" for those sums and aggregates. It is a crime to  induce 
> people with rewards to "govern" or "manage" irresponsibly  unmanageable 
> and non-governable entities. This means aggregates of  about 600 or more 
> components relating with one another. There is no  reason why a 
> commissioner of the EU should earn more than a secretary  of a small town. 
> The false concept of responsibility and the ensuing  rewards are what let 
> us create non recursive institutions and  organizations. The VSM only is a 
> useful model to relate to a living  system, completely useless for gross 
> abtractions as the financial  system, the health system and you name it.
>
> I thought that Stafford referred to Culpabliss when he mentioned the 
> irresponsibility of the delusion that some can manage unmanageable 
> entities: aggregates or sums.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Luc
>
>
> Op 15-okt-08, om 21:41 heeft allenna leonard het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Dear Doug,
>>
>>
>> I'm sure you are right that a good portion of criminality is a  version 
>> of tribal conflict. Gangs are the obvious example. The Mafia  moved into 
>> a power vacuum in Italy where the government's reach  didn't extend to 
>> Sicily. They brought that to the US where I think  the initial thrust was 
>> tribal - Sicilians against other immigrants  who used criminal activity 
>> to get ahead.
>>
>> But, that started to get diffuse.  Some had better opportunities in 
>> legitimate businesses and others moved into legitimate businesses 
>> without planning to play by the rules. They were very active where I 
>> grew up, near Wilkes-Barre, PA both in activities that were normally 
>> criminal and others that involved civil wrongdoing.  The major  example 
>> of the latter was that they took up anthracite(shaft) mining  and didn't 
>> obey the safety regulations.  Miners who were only using  one advance 
>> bore hole burst through into the Susquehanna River and  the accident 
>> killed 19 men and the industry. That was a big  financial blow to the 
>> whole area including themselves. Same might be  said of their waste 
>> disposal companies.  The Wilkes-Barre SMSA had  the highest death rate in 
>> the US in the 1960 census.
>>
>> My own guess (which may be a different expression of yours) is that 
>> criminality is a feature of the narrowing of self-interest - in the 
>> limit almost to a vanishing point.  So, it could be tribal as  opposed to 
>> the larger group but it could also be an individual who  steals from his 
>> or her family. It is interesting in this regard that  sociopaths can be 
>> valued in organizations - as long as their  energies are directed in 
>> paths that benefit others as well as  themselves.
>>
>> Best,
>> Allenna
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 10/15/08, Douglas McDavid <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Douglas McDavid <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: Fw: failure notice
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 1:56 PM
>>> Hi Allenna --
>>>
>>> Thought I'd make a couple of comments back to you.  I
>>> can't seem to be able
>>> to post to the listserv.  My posts get rejected because of
>>> a gif
>>> attachment, though I have no idea where such attachments
>>> would come from.
>>>
>>> Oh well.
>>>
>>> I wonder how much so-called criminality is actually clashes
>>> among diverse
>>> cultural groups.  A mafia really is a family.  Where
>>> various tribal units
>>> rub together, there is often friction, where each side
>>> considers the
>>> other's actions to be "criminal".  One such
>>> tribe is the old boy group you
>>> allude to, and of course that is portioned off to some
>>> unknown number of
>>> sub-tribes.
>>>
>>> The tribal stuff (culture) is pretty much an aspect of S2
>>> (I think).  The
>>> police actions in response to perceived crimes are about
>>> maintaining the
>>> system boundary.  This is one modeling thought that I
>>> appreciate in
>>> Miller's work (that the boundary is one of the 19
>>> subsystems).
>>>
>>> That black black box effect is rampant in tainted toys,
>>> pharmaceuticals,
>>> etc. being shipped around globally.  Of course there is a
>>> huge and growing
>>> business in homeland security,  But king of crop right now
>>> is the
>>> 40X-leveraged derivative on a toxic stock of fraudulently
>>> marketed
>>> foreclosures-in-waiting.
>>>
>>> This _is_ the information age, or at least it seems to need
>>> to be.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> McD
>>>
>>> Oh, P.S.  I am about to join a project already in progress
>>> in Shenzhen.
>>> Maybe 3-6 months, if it works out, with a few weeks home
>>> interspersed
>>> throughout.  Should be interesting.
>>>
>>> Doug McDavid
>>>
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> 408-927-1565 (IBM tie-line: 457)
>>> Business Architect -- Global Business Services and Almaden
>>> Research Center
>>> IBM Academy of Technology (
>>> http://www-306.ibm.com/ibm/academy/index.html )
>>> Doug Mandelbrot in Second Life
>>> ( http:slurl.com/secondlife/Zeus/218/191/22 )
>>> Board Member, New Media Consortium ( http://www.nmc.org/)
>>> Blog: http://dougmcdavid.com/blog/
>>> "I start things, but I never" -- D. Stahl
>>> (Twitter)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             allenna leonard
>>>
>>>             <allenna_leonard@
>>>
>>>             yahoo.com>
>>>               To
>>>             Sent by: Forum
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>             dedicated to the
>>>            cc
>>>             work of Stafford
>>>
>>>             Beer
>>>       Subject
>>>             <UCD-STAFFORDBEER         Fw: failure
>>> notice
>>>             @LISTSERV.HEANET.
>>>
>>>             IE>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             10/15/2008 07:26
>>>
>>>             AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             Please respond to
>>>
>>>             allenna_leonard@y
>>>
>>>                 ahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oops - typo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> I've been overcommitted in other areas and so have
>>>> barely been able to read, never mind participate in
>>> the
>>>> recent discussions. This response will be partial but
>>> can
>>>> perhaps add somewhat to Stafford's ideas about
>>>> criminality.
>>>>
>>>> The first point is that he didn't regard criminals
>>> as
>>>> very different from the people in the plutocracy that
>>> always
>>>> (and often perfectly legally) arranged matters so that
>>> they
>>>> got the benefit and others absorbed the costs. The
>>> outright
>>>> criminals probably did less damage because they were
>>> out in the open and
>>>> somewhat contained by the law than the old boy
>>> networks at
>>>> the top who feathered their own nests at the expense
>>> of
>>>> their communities or their countries.  And, he
>>> remarked more
>>>> than once, at least they weren't hypocrites to
>>> boot.
>>>>
>>>> He told a story about an Indian colleague who lamented
>>> his
>>>> country's level of thievery demonstrated by the
>>> fact
>>>> that a trainload of grain would arrive at its remote
>>>> destination barely half full.  Stafford replied (the
>>> purpose
>>>> of a system being what it does) that they seemed to
>>> have
>>>> developed a very efficient distribution system for the
>>>> grain.
>>>>
>>>> Stafford agreed with Deming that the failure is in the
>>>> systems rather than in the individuals 9 times out of
>>> 10.
>>>> My colleague Bill Bradshaw with whom I worked on the
>>> audit
>>>> projects for the Canadian Institute of Chartered
>>> Accountants
>>>> held similar views.  If the safeguards aren't
>>> built in
>>>> to the system, the temptation will prove to be too
>>> much -
>>>> either to someone who is greedy and unscrupulous or to
>>>> someone who simply has a compelling need for more
>>> money and
>>>> no legitimate way to get it. A strong system of
>>> management
>>>> control like the VSM makes it very difficult to cheat
>>> at a
>>>> material level.
>>>>
>>>> In the analogy to cancer - many cancers seem to arise
>>>> because the body depletes its toxin removing
>>> capacities or
>>>> because its immune systems become weak.  Indeed cancer
>>>> prevention measures include limiting exposure to
>>> toxins and
>>>> eating lots of berries to help get rid of them.
>>> Governance
>>>> measures can also be designed to improve the immune
>>> systems
>>>> of organizations not just to discourage criminality,
>>>> political gamesmanship and internal competition but to
>>>> reward innovation, improve transparency and foster
>>> attitudes
>>>> of attentiveness and adaptation.
>>>>
>>>> Phillip Gueddemi made a presentation at the ASC
>>> Conference
>>>> last spring that talked about the design of black
>>> 'black
>>>> boxes' so that both financial products (like
>>> packaged
>>>> loans) and tangible products like processed meat and
>>> goods
>>>> shipped in containers had such low variety filtration
>>> on the
>>>> front end that pretty much anything could be in them.
>>> Like
>>>> with Schrodinger's Cat, you didn't know until
>>> you
>>>> opened the box and/or ate the meat.
>>>>
>>>> Stafford certainly did approve of the function of the
>>>> police although he was suspicious of the forces'
>>>> tendencies to attract people with right wing values or
>>> who
>>>> enjoyed power for its own sake.  He was also quite
>>> worried
>>>> about the power of technology to invade privacy and
>>> target
>>>> people who might disagree with the powers that be.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Allenna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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