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Thanks H.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garderen, Harold van" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle


Hi Nick,

Well, I guess it all depend on ones perspective. At least it is free and
up for improvement by "the field". We were talking open source, and
someone suggested MySQL. From my view as a non-ICT guy I found an
out-of-the-box server (XAMPP) and a pre-installed webmarket (virtuemart)
improvements that are easily installed on top of mySQL. If I was in the
business of building bespoke websites for shops both could be a threat I
guess.

Same can hold for VSM applications/nuts and bolts that I suggest to put
in the store. For the real techies it might be a disaster, for me, the
non-knowlegeable, it is simple stuff that works. I thought we were
trying here to come up with a strategy that made VSM shine in the light
of a broad(er) audience. For such a goal I'm not so much interested in
"the best" but in "something that works".

So if we confine XAMPP, MySQL, VirtueMarkt and all the other stuff to
the server your laptop/PC doesn't have to suffer :-) The good stuff
should be the downloadable docs and apps that should spread the message.

Harold


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Green
> Sent: maandag 6 oktober 2008 19:00
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
>
> Hi Harold,
>
> Is XAMPP an improvement? Is Virtuemarkt a German name for the
> package or something else?
>
> When I think of the hours I have spent installing and
> removing MySQl. PHP etc, as for all the crazy fuss about the
> DBMS- ychh. But I bet there are traces of old installs in my
> machine which will cause side effects in e.g.
> .net, where MS SQL is required..
>
> There are problems with writing software by committee.
> Unnecessarily complicated structure, bloat,  feature creep,
> ridiculous ambiguous documentation come to mind. Life does
> not have to be like that.  I used to say "write the manual
> (note the singular) first and let a summary fit onto an A4
> card". People smiled but it kept them focussed. We want a
> clear strong vision to implement "The Right Thing". We only
> want to reliably insert a password protected record into a
> remote computer (and get it back!). These days the
> constraints are thoroughly understood. Sound ergonomics and
> decent runtime for both users and developers has to come out
> of this eventually.
>
> Best
>
> N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Garderen, Harold van" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
>
>
> Well, I think the answer should be "a collective" not a person.
>
> The first problem is "who can contribute".
>
> * Who can download XAMPP/Virtuemarkt and install it on f.e.
> metaforum so
> that "VSM goods" can be put in the market?
> * Who has something to contribute?
>       - F.e. a filter + a story how it was applied. What
> worked and what
> not.
>       - A small tool in XLS, f.e. diagnostic help + a "script" (sorry
> for the word) to guide the "new recruit"
>         in its attempts to use it for the first time.
> * Who wants to voluteer to form a support group. This group can assist
> "new recruits"
>
> To me it seems the first problem is "getting more people started" and
> support them from the current active community.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Harold
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> > Leonid Ototsky
> > Sent: maandag 6 oktober 2008 13:18
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
> >
> > Cool, Harold !
> > Who will organize such Open Community ?
> > It will be a great experiment "to promote" the McCulloch's
> > "redundancy"
> > which was used by Stafford at the System-5 level.
> > There is a new possibility now in our "Web Era" try to
> > implement this in the "VSM Society" .
> >
> > Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
> >
> > > Very well said. The way Guru's try to change the world
> > never worked.
> > > Sad for Stafford c.s., but given it was even true for guys
> > like Hitler
> > > eventually, even the most powerful can't.
> > >
> > > So what works? Well, to me it seems that "bottom up" has a better
> > > chance. Look at Gates/Microsoft. They started at the bottom, their
> > > stuff spread worldwide quickly. They were no guru's until
> AFTER the
> > > fact and NEVER managed to change the world they created again ....
> > >
> > > I've said it more than once: why not start at the bottom:
> > small tools,
> > > small applications, WIDE diversity, let 100 zillion
> flowers grow in
> > > SMB organizations. Forget the ugly behemoths, spread
> > globally, become
> > > viruslike, go grassroots, just like linux, xampp, but then for the
> > > management of self-control. Document cases: no just
> > technically, but
> > > also process and spam it to find fertile ground
> elsewhere. Until we
> > > reach the tipping point.
> > >
> > > Open source is not just a technical trick for code, it can also be
> > > used to build an application-network, zillions of places
> > where people
> > > play with the tools, the stories, improve, steal, borrow,
> > give, etc.
> > > All that knowledge needs to be open source too. Have a look at how
> > > www.cognitive-edge.com approaches this.
> > >
> > > Hey! We are the complexity masters right! If WE can't bring about
> > > change to a small complex system like the world, who will
> > believe us
> > > when we say the world needs to change. We ARE the world, IN
> > the world.
> > >
> > > Harold
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of William
> > > Livingston
> > > Sent: maandag 6 oktober 2008 11:09
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for providing another round of data points about
> > the sociology
> > > of inter-domain technology transfer. What is significant about the
> > > vast collection of these experiences of passive/aggressive
> > rejections,
> > > over the ages, is that the creation of this ubiquitous response
> > > remains undiscussed and unexamined. Where is the clarion
> > call saying
> > > "Hey, anybody see a pattern here? How come there are no contrary
> > > examples?" None.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Decades ago I made it a point to visit with the living
> > greats in
> > > systems think, including Stafford. Near the end all would say
> > > something to the effect that - "Although my concepts have not yet
> > > taken hold to any commensurate extent, in a hundred years or so
> > > society would gradually get the message and the discipline
> > of systems
> > > think would become a cultural norm."  I noted these
> > mentors, and their
> > > mentors, had tormented endings - to a man.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is absolutely no shred of evidence that, given
> > time, society
> > > will gravitate towards what's best for its survival and
> > advancement.
> > > There is no compelling force towards enlightenment-based action.
> > > Anyone can find the same miserable pattern of sabotage in the
> > > literature of a century ago - Thorstein Veblen being but
> > one example.
> > > What is striking is that the behavioral attributes of
> > institutions are
> > > exactly the same, century in and century out - oblivious to
> > > circumstances. The institutional rejection of VSM,
> > wholesale, is but
> > > one instance of the institutional aversion to
> intelligence-informed
> > > management. Friday, USA citizens bailed out Wall St. to the
> > tune of a
> > > trillion dollars without once investigating by what means
> > this global
> > > emergency manifested, unforeseeable, overnight.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Oh, you had no idea on Friday when you reported solid
> > financial
> > > strength that by Monday your institution would be down $300
> > billion?
> > > No problem. Here's money for you to keep doing whatever you
> > were doing.
> > > After all, your $400 trillion in unregulated derivatives makes out
> > > national budget look parsimonious."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In view of this stunning measurement of institutional
> > ideology, it
> > > just doesn't seem likely that promoting VSM in the ways and
> > means it
> > > has been promoted will fare any better in the future. But, that's
> > > another undiscussable.
> > >
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