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Dear all,

Joining in at last.

1. Virtual stays virtual in any form and excludes the relation with  
"reality". Understanding how models relate to reality becomes a scarce  
experience. Paradoxically this experience cannot be gained through  
virtual means alone. That is why I react reluctantly and late and  
paradoxically here.
2. Everything a human being does is on a human scale. Let's forget the  
macho language of superhuman scale. Viability is on a human scale and  
is about life, not about principles and grand schemes. Small is not  
only beautiful, but is the only lived "reality".
3. Working with other human beings on a human scale, there is no  
problem at all to "apply" the VSM. Reflecting on one's experience is  
modelling viability. As I mentioned earlier, the big mistake was to  
see the Chili experience as a more than human scale experience. It  
came about through a small number of people alive with hope and fear,  
love and hatred. And as all life it died.
4. As I wrote to Russell personally, ORACLE and SAP have as models not  
the slightest insight in the recursive law of the VSM, nor in Ashby's  
law.
5. We are experiencing the resilience of small scale systems through  
the painful extinction of the "big" systems, big governmnt, big  
business and big crime. Fortunately small government, small business  
and small crime are much more resilient. A viable system consists of  
viable parts, if the system disappears, the parts survive.
6. Viability is about self-regulation and self-regulation can be a  
very painful process to get through as life from time to time can be  
rather painful, surely when structurally self-regulation is taking  
over. Soetimes life is painful.

Kind regards,

Luc


Op 6-okt-08, om 13:28 heeft Garderen, Harold van het volgende  
geschreven:

> Well, I think the answer should be "a collective" not a person.
>
> The first problem is "who can contribute".
>
> * Who can download XAMPP/Virtuemarkt and install it on f.e.  
> metaforum so
> that "VSM goods" can be put in the market?
> * Who has something to contribute?
>      - F.e. a filter + a story how it was applied. What worked and  
> what
> not.
>      - A small tool in XLS, f.e. diagnostic help + a "script" (sorry
> for the word) to guide the "new recruit"
>        in its attempts to use it for the first time.
> * Who wants to voluteer to form a support group. This group can assist
> "new recruits"
>
> To me it seems the first problem is "getting more people started" and
> support them from the current active community.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Harold
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Leonid Ototsky
>> Sent: maandag 6 oktober 2008 13:18
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
>>
>> Cool, Harold !
>> Who will organize such Open Community ?
>> It will be a great experiment "to promote" the McCulloch's
>> "redundancy"
>> which was used by Stafford at the System-5 level.
>> There is a new possibility now in our "Web Era" try to
>> implement this in the "VSM Society" .
>>
>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>
>>> Very well said. The way Guru's try to change the world
>> never worked.
>>> Sad for Stafford c.s., but given it was even true for guys
>> like Hitler
>>> eventually, even the most powerful can't.
>>>
>>> So what works? Well, to me it seems that "bottom up" has a better
>>> chance. Look at Gates/Microsoft. They started at the bottom, their
>>> stuff spread worldwide quickly. They were no guru's until AFTER the
>>> fact and NEVER managed to change the world they created again ....
>>>
>>> I've said it more than once: why not start at the bottom:
>> small tools,
>>> small applications, WIDE diversity, let 100 zillion flowers grow in
>>> SMB organizations. Forget the ugly behemoths, spread
>> globally, become
>>> viruslike, go grassroots, just like linux, xampp, but then for the
>>> management of self-control. Document cases: no just
>> technically, but
>>> also process and spam it to find fertile ground elsewhere. Until we
>>> reach the tipping point.
>>>
>>> Open source is not just a technical trick for code, it can also be
>>> used to build an application-network, zillions of places
>> where people
>>> play with the tools, the stories, improve, steal, borrow,
>> give, etc.
>>> All that knowledge needs to be open source too. Have a look at how
>>> www.cognitive-edge.com approaches this.
>>>
>>> Hey! We are the complexity masters right! If WE can't bring about
>>> change to a small complex system like the world, who will
>> believe us
>>> when we say the world needs to change. We ARE the world, IN
>> the world.
>>>
>>> Harold
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> 	From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of William
>>> Livingston
>>> 	Sent: maandag 6 oktober 2008 11:09
>>> 	To: [log in to unmask]
>>> 	Subject: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 	Thanks for providing another round of data points about
>> the sociology
>>> of inter-domain technology transfer. What is significant about the
>>> vast collection of these experiences of passive/aggressive
>> rejections,
>>> over the ages, is that the creation of this ubiquitous response
>>> remains undiscussed and unexamined. Where is the clarion
>> call saying
>>> "Hey, anybody see a pattern here? How come there are no contrary
>>> examples?" None.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 	Decades ago I made it a point to visit with the living
>> greats in
>>> systems think, including Stafford. Near the end all would say
>>> something to the effect that - "Although my concepts have not yet
>>> taken hold to any commensurate extent, in a hundred years or so
>>> society would gradually get the message and the discipline
>> of systems
>>> think would become a cultural norm."  I noted these
>> mentors, and their
>>> mentors, had tormented endings - to a man.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 	There is absolutely no shred of evidence that, given
>> time, society
>>> will gravitate towards what's best for its survival and
>> advancement.
>>> There is no compelling force towards enlightenment-based action.
>>> Anyone can find the same miserable pattern of sabotage in the
>>> literature of a century ago - Thorstein Veblen being but
>> one example.
>>> What is striking is that the behavioral attributes of
>> institutions are
>>> exactly the same, century in and century out - oblivious to
>>> circumstances. The institutional rejection of VSM,
>> wholesale, is but
>>> one instance of the institutional aversion to intelligence-informed
>>> management. Friday, USA citizens bailed out Wall St. to the
>> tune of a
>>> trillion dollars without once investigating by what means
>> this global
>>> emergency manifested, unforeseeable, overnight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 	"Oh, you had no idea on Friday when you reported solid
>> financial
>>> strength that by Monday your institution would be down $300
>> billion?
>>> No problem. Here's money for you to keep doing whatever you
>> were doing.
>>> After all, your $400 trillion in unregulated derivatives makes out
>>> national budget look parsimonious."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 	In view of this stunning measurement of institutional
>> ideology, it
>>> just doesn't seem likely that promoting VSM in the ways and
>> means it
>>> has been promoted will fare any better in the future. But, that's
>>> another undiscussable.
>>>
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> This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the  
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> for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are  
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of  
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> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the  
> sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message.
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> Thank you for your co-operation.
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