Of course it will....but ever it was.

With respect, I think your missing the systemic point about visibility and ubiquity, Russell. Two, three or n' individuals from all sorts of races, cultures, age groups, religions, societies, interests, spread round thew world in every conceivable way, has NEVER previously been remotely possible. I'm not saying desirable or any else - just it has never been remotely POSSIBLE. Steve's interesting background and professional activities do unearth and keep focus upon THREATS (which are, were and ever will be present). However, what I would love to see is the focus of minds like Stevesupon an emerging, but I hypothesize, very different form of DIFFUSED and GLOBAL power emerging from the embedment of the Internet in society.

And - once more a hypothesis - I would hazard a guess that this diffused power will simply have more VARIETY (as in VSM) than that of any controller. So - OK, last week a large tranche of the Internet crashed because of paranoid national government activity and interference. But look how quickly itr was back up and running and imagine the enormous pressure - economic and every other sort - to ensure that it was back running 'normally' as quickly as possible.

Obviously the 'Rumsfeld axis' - the so-called industrial/military complex is real, and has always to be unearthed. However, the real test of a hypothesis such as mine will come from the ongoing development and power of China. And it will be interesting to witness....


Roger


On 27 Feb 2008, at 12:44, R Clemens wrote:

Steve & Roger,

Thank you for the update and observations on developments in this area.

1. It's frightening what Steve points out, that in some people's perspectives we are all just a mass of little "T's" ... and what this binary mode reply (he gets) means to me is again how important it is to keep at least a humanoid-based system with binary+1 capacity in control of the control room.

2. I take Roger's point (if I understand it correctly) that with a little fake fur and a nice St Bernard cuddly face (and a pot of rum) these machines could be lovable saviors in an avalanche rescue. But surely, it's the machine industry behind the machine that we should fear. And now we need them because 'they' will have them too!. Perhaps our ancestors thought the car to be such an instrument of death that it seems to have become (en mass) -- both in direct and indirect ways (e.g., climate change if its real)?

I will attempt to meditate for 40 days and 40 nights on the image of Arnie Schwarzenegger (and abstain from watching Terminators I & II) while chanting "He's just a Governor of California, he's just a governor of ...". ... ;-|

But more seriously, the question in my somewhat cynical mind is, given the levels of systemic corruption today (and perhaps always): will this "openness and transparency" referred to simply help determine better which particular group of organized criminals are running the show at present?

(and the justification of cost, I read there are something like 800 million today living in abject poverty: How is this justified and rationalized?)

Russell


Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I'm not so sure that it's about 'building a new paradise on earth, as I'm sure you'd agree  Steve. It's something more mundane and at the same time possibly wider reaching. 

From a cybernetic vision, isn't it about having the confidence and community support allowing one to sustain a vision that lays down a trajectory. And that zig zag trajectory being a bit 'sticky' in terms of like minds and initiatives.

We all know from history (distant and recent) - you more than most, Steve - the dangers and threats. What the effective humanist optimist does is surely simply maintain dialogues, relationships, and as far as possible conduct life in awareness of opportunities and threats - whether social, ecological, political or whatever. I'm not even sure whether the imagery of a war or battle is useful. We are 'thrown' into the too and fro which, call it a battle, or call it life, is real and has concrete manifestations.

It is, as the description of this thread says, about 'saving the world a bit' or indeed, about trying to save the world a bit up to the point when you or it are not saved.

But, in spite of the modesty of such a programme, I manage to bolster my optimism by refecting on, and indeed encouraging, an insight into peculiar democratic tendencies of a gloabl and ubiquitous info-sphere - in full awareness of how both he forces of darkness and light will carry out their dance through such a medium. As I have said, perhaps naively, previosuly, I believe that a critical change emerged from this historical  development, is rapidity of transparency. Not the end ofd manipulation, lies etc, but the speed in which such manoevers become public.

Roger
On 27 Feb 2008, at 09:55, Wright, Steve wrote:

Russell,
 
Thanks for this - youve highlighted an area we're working on here in terms of alogorithmic policing and targeting. professor Stephen Graham at Durham University is doing excellent and pioneering work on the theme of urbicide - military plans for taking out the populations of large cities a growing military ideology but one bypassed by most of the epace research communities. His new work on killer robots and "augmented reality" where soldiers tarin and work in half real half cyber worlds is worth examining. We have money at Leeds Met to pull all this together for a special conference at Linkoping University in early September on Imaging War - Intergenerational perspectives... Maybe some of the group might be interested?
 
Military cybernetics in this field is growing increasingly double edged and alien. Ive seen mini surveilance robots at arms fairs and devices which can detect a human heart beat by radio emmissions not sound, over a kilometere away. Fantastic if you are under a collapsed building or enveloped in an avalanche - scary terminator teritory if the seninels are on hunter mode. The drift is not towards Dr Who though autonomous execution systems are on the horizon now they have a laboratory in Iraq to experiment with the algorithms. What we will see is inovations like the paradoxically named Irobot which is incoporating neuro-muscular incapacitation devices like taser onto a robot platform. We can anticipate new autonomous systems to ploce borders in a time of mass migration for dealing with the symptoms of climate change and the array of immobilizing and pain inducing technologies is increasing.
 
My own view based on a dry eyed perception of NGO and humanitarian networking groups like Metaphorum, is that the probablilities are more towards deployment of these "fixers" than a beneovelnt democratic lets share the planets resources outcome - unless we can generate new X factors ala Asimovs Foundation and Empire - It is one of the reasons why I believe research activists need to analyse the companies involved and theuir benevolent pension sponsoring shareholders. In the emantime, it ios worth thinking of countermeasures......
 
I once asked one of the progenitors of the active denial pain beam what about countermeasures - and his stark reply is memorable and illustrative. "there are only two types of people in the world, tourists and terrorists. Tourists dont make countermeasures and terrorists we shoot!" For ideas on countermeasures see Wright and Martin - Looming Struggles over border control
 
 
If we are serious about building a new paradise on earth, the period of transition sems to inevitably include a rather prolongeed period in struggling with these sinister "weeds" from a previous era and its mindsets.
 
Steve


From: R Clemens
Sent: Wed 27/02/2008 03:15
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Saving the world a bit! ... Who needs Dr Who?

Dear Boris,
 
Perhaps you will feel a bit safer knowing this ...perhaps not?
 
 
All they need to do is scream out "Exterminate!" and there we have it ... a long day in hell.
 
Thanks for the foresight BBC: it all looks very viable!
 
regards
 
Russell
----
 

Killer robots 'a threat to humanity'

 
 
There are more than 4,000 US military robots on the ground in Iraq. (File photo) (wikipedia.org)
 
Increasingly autonomous, gun-toting robots developed for warfare could easily fall into the hands of terrorists and may one day unleash a robot arms race, a top expert on artificial intelligence says.
 
"They pose a threat to humanity," University of Sheffield professor Noel Sharkey said, ahead of a keynote address before Britain's Royal United Services Institute.

. . . .
There are more than 4,000 US military robots on the ground in Iraq, as well as unmanned aircraft that have clocked hundreds of thousands of flight hours.
 
. . .
The US Government plans to spend $4.28 billion by 2010 on unmanned technology systems, with total spending expected rise to $25.7 billion, according to the Department of Defence's Unmanned Systems Roadmap 2007-2032, released in December.
 
. . . .
James Canton, an expert on technology innovation and chief executive of the Institute for Global Futures, predicts that deployment within a decade of detachments that will include 150 soldiers and 2,000 robots.

"Boris G Freesman, Q.C." <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
... à propos...
 
"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult."  EB White
 
Boris
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Roger Harnden
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: Saving the world - a bit!

A majority of two is twice as great as a majority of one.....but we better not try and go any lower!!!

Roger
On 16 Feb 2008, at 19:47, Boris G Freesman, Q.C. wrote:

I guess that makes us a majority of 2!!!
 
Boris
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Roger Harnden
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 4:32 AM
Subject: Re: Saving the world - a bit!

absolutely agree,

Roger
On 13 Feb 2008, at 21:28, Boris G Freesman, Q.C. wrote:

Not me! Exclude me in; include me out!
 
I DO want to save the world... because the prospects of leaving this mess as a legacy to my children and      grandchildren chills my Soul.
The problem is that I don’t know how... and even if I did, I doubt it is a task that can be accomplished by one person, all alone. I may a foolish, optimistic dreamer, but I am not the Second Coming...
But, thanks to Stafford, I do know how to CHANGE the world, both "outside, there" and "inside, here." I sum up Stafford's legacy in his own words: a platform for change. And I trust – as he did – that a changed world will know how to save itself.
And to clarify some previous statements I have made, the way I see it the VSM and Team Syntegrity speak to those changes that must take place "outside, there." Prang speaks to the changes required "inside, here."
Boris
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">ROD THOMAS
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Saving the world - a bit!

Dear Allenna,
 
Yes, saving the world  a bit or more is attractive - but the point is 'what bit'? What operation can a syntegration inform?
How many recursions are there to the the total planetary system? Is this the biggest set of variety equations anyone has ever set out to contemplate? What's that old saying: think globally, act locally. Doesn't this equate to the maxim: its too big to influence it all but you can always decide not to catch so many planes.
 
Anyway, I,m repeating myself on this one so I'll sign off - see comments elsewhere if of interest.
 
Regards
Rod

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear Rossell et al,

Your point about conflicting weather data illustrates
the need for a cybernetics/systems approach to
understanding climate change. What we are looking at
is a potential massive change in climate that is
likely to have different effects than expected and to
have differing local impacts. What we are looking at
is incipient instability: both envorionmental and
social.

Saving the world - a little bit or more - is a more
attractive alternative than its negative. It has only
been since WWII that human beings have had to confront
the possibility that we could damage the earth -
through nucelar war or environmental catastrophe where
humanity would not be a viable proposition. Always
before, no matter how brutal a regime, its time would
go as it had come. That is something that takes a bit
of accomodation.

Best,
Allenna


--- R Clemens <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> There is a Time message from 1974:
>
http://amazing.deter.com/content/Politics/Time%20-%20Another%20Ice%20Age.pdf
> 
> For me, the language used in this article is the
> interesting point – e.g., “Climatological Cassandras
> are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the
> weather aberrations they are studying may be the
> harbinger of another ice age.” 
> 
> And then we can take recent work by Dr Toby
> Tyrrell of the University of Southampton's School of
> Ocean and Earth Science
>
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070829193436.htm)
> that might suggest some future utility for having
> huge C02 banks via geo-sequestration should it get a
> bit chilly.
> 
> I tried to point his new data out to ‘policy’
> people in a work context late last year – but alas
> the career benefits of the new Climate Change agenda
> seemed to have taken over and I was advised that
> “the government” was taking climate change seriously
> and that my observations were not in conformance
> with this new career enhancing dogma. 
> 
> My argument was not for or against climate change
> – rather the need for futures thinking to take in
> many environmental information sources. 
> 
> And then we have global dimming – all very
> complex. 
> 
> 
> 
> And I enjoyed the observations about ‘deliverance’:
> yes, very powerful stuff those needs. 
> Russell 
> 
> "Wright, Steve" <[log in to unmask]>wrote: 
> Dear Rod,
> 
> I think your comment cuts to the chase. To think we
> can save the world is a bit like the cork on the
> pacific ocean demanding order, order. But neither
> can we wash our hands of the whole car crash in
> motion, tempting though that might be. Most of us
> are not visionaries and even Stafford knew when it
> was time to head for the bar. Nevertheless we have
> some insight into what might make a difference in
> process terms.
> 
> I think you are right when you say taking on the
> whole burden is too much but it would be wrong even
> in the systems vocabulary shared by the group. I
> think it is a bit like attempting to understand the
> holocaust in one leap, it is too much and can lead
> to psychic numbing and I feel sure that is why so
> many teens are now are finding their illusions in
> cyberdelic dungeons. What we might aspire to is to
> recognise the moments when a tipping point for the
> better may emerge and then catalyse that change and
> go for the roll. We've experienced some of the
> energy with this thread which has released an
> enjoyable amount of intellect, enthusiasm and
> passion. Maybe it is part of the getting to know and
> trust each other a bit more so that when it gets
> really difficult we might be able to network more
> effectively and see some of the stepping stones
> across the transition. Prophets are always
> troublesome but I think it is encouraging that we
> seem to share a positive vision of the future
> that seems worth collectively doing something about
> even if eventually (to mangle AJ Muste), it is more
> by life than by words.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> From: ROD THOMAS
> Sent: Mon 11/02/2008 21:58
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: System failure
> 
> 
> Dear Angela,
> 
> Thanks for the detailed reply, I can appreciate the
> reasoning behind the decision to hold the
> syntegration in Sweden on this subject.
> 
> My only observation relates to the view - you refer
> to Steve and Russell's recent messages - that we
> have some kind of special role or responsibility in
> being the mid-wife to what you call 'massive social
> change'. I would caution against any view that it is
> in some sense our responsibility to change, or for
> want of a better expression, 'save the world'. I
> think this view continually appears in contributions
> to this list server. In my mind this places too
> great a burden and too big an expectation on those
> who have an interest in management cybernetics - I
> thinlk that the likely outcome is psychological
> damage if not despair. Indeed, some might argue that
> it is a variation on the ancient theory (or
> prophecy?) of deliverance and / or destiny : either
> by messiahs, chosen people, tribes, social classes
> etc. A view that throughtout history has manifested
> itself in various guises.... always with the same
> outcome: trouble.
> 
> I have a feeling that this issue has arisen before
> on this discussion board because I have already
> recounted the story that when I asked Stafford about
> PLATFORM FOR CHANGE (in about 2000?), he replied
> that during the 1970s he had made the mistake of
> thinking that it was his reponsibility to save /
> change the world. He said that he had been much
> happier since re-evaluating the prospects of this.
> He said he was unbelievably happy.
> 
> 'Is it my round?' was his next question, and we
> stayed up late enjoying the time that we had in
> proximity to a bar that was open.
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
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