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Hi Neil & List,

>> Gráinne daughter of Art,
>> a dear generous nature/spirit;
>> hard on us is not
>> the family from which she was born.
>
> I don't quite follow your logic here Dennis. I thought it was pretty
> clear from DIL that 'ór' could represent 'ó + relative + ro' in Mid. Ir.
> as well. But there is also an example in DIL of it meaning 'ó'
> conjunction + 'ro'.

Let me see if I can make my thinking clear.  If I can't, there's
no reason to go with my "cat", just for the sake of less barking.
;-)  It begins with my sense that the language of the poet is
basically Early Modern Irish, not Middle Irish, so interpreting
the poem in terms of modern usage will give us the best reading.
Verifying that "ór" is used in EMI (as opposed to modern "ónar")
was just something I had to do for myself, not a clincher.  What
got me going, however, was the close parallel in *overall usage*
between our lines and the sentence I quoted from Keating.

First, there is a family of idioms in Modern Irish that express
the idea of "descend from" or "spring from" that consists of
various likely verbs followed by the preposition "o":  fás ó,
cin ó, síolraigh ó, fréamhaigh ó, etc.  In a society that was
obsessed by lineage, as were the upper strata of the Gael, these
idioms are, I think, in the first rank of clichés that you expect
to find in praise  poems.  Thus I have a clear prejudice: I
*expect* to see "ó" used as a preposition along with "cin", not
as a conjunction.

Next, there's a matter of verbal morphology.  "Ó" as a conjunction
meaning "since" is still very much alive in the language, but
it is clearly distinguished from the preposition "ó".  The first
requires a direct verb form, and the second an indirect:

ónar shíolraigh sé = from which he descended
ar shíolraigh sé uaidh = from which he descended

(The first of these is now more formal, the second more common.)

ó shíolraidh sé = since he propagated

As best I can tell, EMI made the same distinction (but with
"ór, lér, fár", etc. in the indirect past, rather than the modern
"ónar, lenar, faoinar", etc.).

Your most recent suggested translations require "ó" to be a
conjunction:

> (c) Daor oraind ni fhuil
> (d) An crobhaing ô-r·chin
>
>  hard on us is not
>  that race, ever since she was born.

> >>  hard on us is not
> >>  that race since it was born.

I'd put both into Modern Irish (sort of modern anyway, since
"cin" is really not much in use):

daor orainn níl
an crobhaing ó chin sé/sí

If I'm correct in thinking that EMI made the same distinction
that Modern Irish does between the direct and indirect verb
forms, then EMI use of "ó" as a conjunction would not have
had the "-r" here either.  And if the poet's language was
EMI, then this would be a clincher?

I hope this argument doesn't come across as a total muddle!

Dennis