LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for OLD-IRISH-L Archives


OLD-IRISH-L Archives

OLD-IRISH-L Archives


OLD-IRISH-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

OLD-IRISH-L Home

OLD-IRISH-L Home

OLD-IRISH-L  February 2011

OLD-IRISH-L February 2011

Subject:

Re: De Bunad Imthechta Eóganachta 37

From:

Catherine Swift <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:39:52 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (49 lines)

In his Echtrae Chonnlai book - Kim talks about early Old Irish indicators - consonants pp. 31-35 and he says
"The Old Irish voicing of dentals on the word boundary next to an unstressed vowel entailed word-final ...(can't do the phonetic alphabet here) - spelt -th and -d" ... this is a heading to a discussion which goes on on page 34 "That being so, the evidence of Egerton  alone is hardly sufficient to establish -th or (palatal) -ch over a d or (palatal) g due to the voicing processes discussed above... It is to be noted that -th is occasionally still written after an unstressed vowel even in standard Old Irish" and then he gives exs from Wurzburg.  The basic argument is that there are weird and wonderful scribes who do continue to use that alteration till quite late in the day and my recollection from listening to Jurgen and Damian (who used this as a textbook for the TCD M.Phil in my day) - was that they agreed on the basis of other manuscripts/scribes (but I can't remember which ones.) 

Kim's equally dubious about "to" and do" referring to hyper-corrections and again laying stress on Egerton's weird spelling habits (p.32-3). 

So my question would be "can we use these as  dating criteria in the absence of a study of all the Psalter of Cashel texts as a unit to see if they all show the same spelling habits" ? because they could, surely, be there due to passing through one scribe with nasty Egerton-minded spelling habits?  (though I suppose one would want evidence that there's lots of weird spellings abounding in the collection not just these ones.) 

  and, arising out of that "would we be in danger of running around like headless chickens in a circle if we tried dating the texts on other grounds - i.e. what is the independent evidence that the Psalter texts are early if its not the Thurneysen/GOI view that these linguistic characteristics are early features?

Cathy

PS - In short -  more than one drink will be called for in the summer before I finally let  my poor Vikings be wrested from me!



-----Original Message-----
From: Old-Irish-L [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Neil McLeod
Sent: 23 February 2011 17:07
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OLD-IRISH-L] De Bunad Imthechta Eóganachta 37

On 23/02/2011 11:57 PM, David Stifter wrote:

>> (c) final lenited -d spelled -th:
>
> This I would consider significant.
>
>> - §32 di thorath
>> - §19 ar biuth
>> - ZCP viii 314.10 (which we haven't done yet)  ar slógeth (for 
>> 'slúagad' - the ó itself isn't significant before g)
>
> Isn't it? It could well be considered an archaic feature, esp. in combination with the e of the second syllable.

I was relying on GOI §60, which says that ó survived later before g (p 40 line 5). The form  'slogad' occurs in the Annals of Ulster for the year 803. I am interested in your point about the -e-. (I know that torad was earlier toreth, for example). Can you explain it further please?
(There is nothing very useful on this point in GOI §723.)


>> - ZCP viii 314.13 memaith
>
> Is this a form of the verb "maidid"? Then the "th" is unhistoric.

Yes, it is. Thanks for that. I am curious though about the phenomenon mentioned at GOI §130.2 (especially sluindid / sluindith). Is unhistoric -th not also an early-ish spelling option? (However, since sluindith is found in Sg, perhaps it doesn't help much with an early eighth century dating.)

Neil
#####################################################################################
This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared 
by MailMarshal
#####################################################################################

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager