LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 15.5

Help for OLD-IRISH-L Archives


OLD-IRISH-L Archives

OLD-IRISH-L Archives


View:

Next Message | Previous Message
Next in Topic | Previous in Topic
Next by Same Author | Previous by Same Author
Chronologically | Most Recent First
Proportional Font | Monospaced Font

Options:

Join or Leave OLD-IRISH-L
Reply | Post New Message
Search Archives


Subject: Re: De Bunad Imthechta Eóganachta 37
From: Catherine Swift <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:39:52 +0000
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
Parts/Attachments

text/plain (49 lines)


In his Echtrae Chonnlai book - Kim talks about early Old Irish indicators - consonants pp. 31-35 and he says
"The Old Irish voicing of dentals on the word boundary next to an unstressed vowel entailed word-final ...(can't do the phonetic alphabet here) - spelt -th and -d" ... this is a heading to a discussion which goes on on page 34 "That being so, the evidence of Egerton  alone is hardly sufficient to establish -th or (palatal) -ch over a d or (palatal) g due to the voicing processes discussed above... It is to be noted that -th is occasionally still written after an unstressed vowel even in standard Old Irish" and then he gives exs from Wurzburg.  The basic argument is that there are weird and wonderful scribes who do continue to use that alteration till quite late in the day and my recollection from listening to Jurgen and Damian (who used this as a textbook for the TCD M.Phil in my day) - was that they agreed on the basis of other manuscripts/scribes (but I can't remember which ones.) 

Kim's equally dubious about "to" and do" referring to hyper-corrections and again laying stress on Egerton's weird spelling habits (p.32-3). 

So my question would be "can we use these as  dating criteria in the absence of a study of all the Psalter of Cashel texts as a unit to see if they all show the same spelling habits" ? because they could, surely, be there due to passing through one scribe with nasty Egerton-minded spelling habits?  (though I suppose one would want evidence that there's lots of weird spellings abounding in the collection not just these ones.) 

  and, arising out of that "would we be in danger of running around like headless chickens in a circle if we tried dating the texts on other grounds - i.e. what is the independent evidence that the Psalter texts are early if its not the Thurneysen/GOI view that these linguistic characteristics are early features?

Cathy

PS - In short -  more than one drink will be called for in the summer before I finally let  my poor Vikings be wrested from me!



-----Original Message-----
From: Old-Irish-L [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Neil McLeod
Sent: 23 February 2011 17:07
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OLD-IRISH-L] De Bunad Imthechta Eóganachta 37

On 23/02/2011 11:57 PM, David Stifter wrote:

>> (c) final lenited -d spelled -th:
>
> This I would consider significant.
>
>> - §32 di thorath
>> - §19 ar biuth
>> - ZCP viii 314.10 (which we haven't done yet)  ar slógeth (for 
>> 'slúagad' - the ó itself isn't significant before g)
>
> Isn't it? It could well be considered an archaic feature, esp. in combination with the e of the second syllable.

I was relying on GOI §60, which says that ó survived later before g (p 40 line 5). The form  'slogad' occurs in the Annals of Ulster for the year 803. I am interested in your point about the -e-. (I know that torad was earlier toreth, for example). Can you explain it further please?
(There is nothing very useful on this point in GOI §723.)


>> - ZCP viii 314.13 memaith
>
> Is this a form of the verb "maidid"? Then the "th" is unhistoric.

Yes, it is. Thanks for that. I am curious though about the phenomenon mentioned at GOI §130.2 (especially sluindid / sluindith). Is unhistoric -th not also an early-ish spelling option? (However, since sluindith is found in Sg, perhaps it doesn't help much with an early eighth century dating.)

Neil
#####################################################################################
This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared 
by MailMarshal
#####################################################################################

Back to: Top of Message | Previous Page | Main OLD-IRISH-L Page

Permalink



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager