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OLD-IRISH-L  June 1999

OLD-IRISH-L June 1999

Subject:

Re: Trogain

From:

"maher, johnpeter" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Jun 1999 02:45:34 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (305 lines)

Dear All

On the connection of parturition and battle, you may wish to see articles "The cult of weapons in
Rock Art and Indo-European Languages", "The Eye of the Needle" in 'The LACUS Forum 1986' and 'The
LACUS Forum 1987' [Linguistic Association of Canada and US].

Note Germanic women's names in <hild> 'battle', Valhalla, Valkyrie etc.

slán

j p maher ........

Draoi O'Duibhginn wrote:

> Dennis and David,
>
> Thanks very much for your responses. Very interesting word, all in all, and
> quite a few definitions to boot. Parturition and travail both refer to the
> pangs of childbirth; interesting if in reference to Macha, as one myth
> speaks of how Macha ran a race, then died in childbirth directly afterward,
> cursing the men of Ulster.
>
> Anyone have access to the I-E root of this? I would like to see how the root
> spawned so many disparate meanings.
>
> Go raibh maith agaibh go le/ir.
>
> Draoi O'Duibhginn
>
> >The Lexique Étymologique de l'Irlandais Ancien seems to suggest
> >that "trogan = raven" doesn't exist, but that i llúaidet mná trogain
> >tress means "où femmes en couches mènent le combat" "where
> >women in birth-pangs instigate battle". As a comparandum he offers
> >troigh mhna troghuin foruibh (ITS V 112) "douleurs (?) d'une femme
> >en couches sur eux" "the pains of a woman in birth-pangs upon
> >them". Dinneen also has the phrase troigh mná troghain "pangs of
> >a woman in travail".
> >
> >David
> >******************************
> >*     Mag. David Stifter     *
> >*    Goldschlagstr.37/17     *
> >*         1150 Wien          *
> >*    ++43-(0)1-789 66 03     *
> >* [log in to unmask] *
> >******************************
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Date:    Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:15:38 +0200
> >From:    Christian Chiarcos <[log in to unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: Martignacco
> >
> >Dennis King
> > >
> > > Ar 10:52 AM -0400 6/5/99, scríobh Alexei Kondratiev:
> > >
> > > >'Martignacco' looks like one of very many Gallo-Roman toponyms formed
> >with
> > > >the suffix _-acum_ (presumably a Latinisation of a Gaulish _-akon_;
> > >
> > > GRMA, Alexei.
> > >
> > > The suffix also commonly took the form -iacum:
> > >
> > > Florus -> Floriacum -> Fleury
> > > Sabinus -> Sabiniacum -> Savigny, Sévigné
> > >
> > > That 'i' would account for the "gn" (= ñ) in Martignacco, no?
> > >
> > > >cognate to the Irish suffix  _-ach_) with a general meaning like
> > > >"pertaining to"
> > >
> > > And to Welsh "-og": gwres (heat) > gwresog (hot)
> > >
> > > and Breton "-ek": penn (head) > pennek (stubborn, "têtu")
> > >
> > > Dennis King
> > >
> >
> >Do we have any information about the date of this name ?
> >
> >If it was really Gallo-Roman, there would hardly be <gn> = [ñ].
> >
> >What about deriving -gn- from the -genos of a PN *Martigenos.
> >*Mart-i-gen-os -> *Mart-i-gen-ako- -> *Martig(e)nacus ~ Martignacco
> >
> >Christian Chiarcos
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Date:    Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:05:28 +1000
> >From:    Graeme Bailey <[log in to unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: 'Macha'  ?
> >
> >Greetings Nicholas,
> >I have been busy but I meant to ask you...
> >Is your answer here ironic? I wasn't sure
> >of how to read it...
> >
> >At 09:30 AM 04-06-1999 -0500, you wrote:
> > >At 10:50 am 3/6/99, Graeme Bailey wrote:
> > >...
> > >>In Everyman's Dictionary of Non-Classical Mythology...
> > >>"Macha. In Celtic myth a war goddess whose name meant 'Battle',
> > >...
> > >>Is the above stuff substantially correct?
> > >>Does Macha really mean 'Battle' or is the
> > >>battle connotation only
> > >>in connection to the stories?
> > >
> > >Itseems suspicious to me that "macha" (with an aspirated velar, and a
> >long
> > >final a) is the usual word for battle in Ancient Greek (strictly
> >speaking,
> > >in Doric dialects).  Perhaps the Evereyman mythologist was clouded by a
> > >classical education?
> >
> >Did you see the post I made with the clips about 'plains'
> >of battle, and various 'Machas'...
> >I know that etymology is the science of the meanings of words...
> >but in the context of Irish Goddesses etc, wasn't it the Irish
> >habit to be sometimes rather cryptic about these things?
> >
> >I was thinking of the phrase
> >'Mo chraoibhin cno' where the meaning is apparently
> >'My cluster of nuts, my brown eyed girl... meaning Ireland..
> >from the time when it was treason to sing of Ireland...
> >and the poets sang in many endearing and figurative titles?
> >Couldn't this phenomenon have something to do with
> >the names of old Deities? and the apparent confusion
> >over 'Macha'?
> >
> >Were you suggesting that a classical education was an advantage
> >in studying Old Irish or did I miss something?
> >
> >Best regards
> >Graeme
> >
> >
> > >----------------------------------------------------------------
> > >                       Nicholas   Ostler
> > >                        Linguacubun Ltd
> > >          "technology for the languages of the world"
> > >
> > >             Batheaston Villa,  172 Bailbrook Lane
> > >             Bath           BA1 7AA        England
> > >             +44-1225-85-2865 fax +44-1225-85-9258
> > >                  [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Date:    Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:12:54 -0500
> >From:    "maher, johnpeter" <[log in to unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: 'Macha'  ?
> >
> >a Chairde
> >
> >Cf. the Germanic Valkyries.
> >
> >*val- 'corpse' + kyr- 'choose'; Val-halla... 'hall [cella]'
> >
> >Women's names  based on <Hild> 'battle'...
> >
> >Ger-hild 'spear + battle', Brant-hild 'sword+battle', Macht-hild 'might +
> >battle' [Mathilde, Maude]...
> >
> >slán
> >
> >  j p maher
> >.............................................................................................
> >
> >Graeme Bailey wrote:
> >
> > > Greetings Nicholas,
> > > I have been busy but I meant to ask you...
> > > Is your answer here ironic? I wasn't sure
> > > of how to read it...
> > >
> > > At 09:30 AM 04-06-1999 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >At 10:50 am 3/6/99, Graeme Bailey wrote:
> > > >...
> > > >>In Everyman's Dictionary of Non-Classical Mythology...
> > > >>"Macha. In Celtic myth a war goddess whose name meant 'Battle',
> > > >...
> > > >>Is the above stuff substantially correct?
> > > >>Does Macha really mean 'Battle' or is the
> > > >>battle connotation only
> > > >>in connection to the stories?
> > > >
> > > >Itseems suspicious to me that "macha" (with an aspirated velar, and a
> >long
> > > >final a) is the usual word for battle in Ancient Greek (strictly
> >speaking,
> > > >in Doric dialects).  Perhaps the Evereyman mythologist was clouded by a
> > > >classical education?
> > >
> > > Did you see the post I made with the clips about 'plains'
> > > of battle, and various 'Machas'...
> > > I know that etymology is the science of the meanings of words...
> > > but in the context of Irish Goddesses etc, wasn't it the Irish
> > > habit to be sometimes rather cryptic about these things?
> > >
> > > I was thinking of the phrase
> > > 'Mo chraoibhin cno' where the meaning is apparently
> > > 'My cluster of nuts, my brown eyed girl... meaning Ireland..
> > > from the time when it was treason to sing of Ireland...
> > > and the poets sang in many endearing and figurative titles?
> > > Couldn't this phenomenon have something to do with
> > > the names of old Deities? and the apparent confusion
> > > over 'Macha'?
> > >
> > > Were you suggesting that a classical education was an advantage
> > > in studying Old Irish or did I miss something?
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > > Graeme
> > >
> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >                       Nicholas   Ostler
> > > >                        Linguacubun Ltd
> > > >          "technology for the languages of the world"
> > > >
> > > >             Batheaston Villa,  172 Bailbrook Lane
> > > >             Bath           BA1 7AA        England
> > > >             +44-1225-85-2865 fax +44-1225-85-9258
> > > >                  [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Date:    Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:42:45 -0700
> >From:    Dennis King <[log in to unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: Martignacco
> >
> >Ar 12:15 PM +0200 6/8/99, scríobh Christian Chiarcos:
> >
> > >If it was really Gallo-Roman, there would hardly be <gn> = [ñ].
> >
> >Not at the Gallo-Roman stage, of course.  The "gn" is simply a
> >spelling convention that came later to represent the ñ or ny sound:
> >
> >Martinus + iacum > Martiniacum > Martiniaco > Martignacco, Martignac
> >
> >The name might likely have meant "the Fundus* of Martinus".
> >
> >* farm, estate, bottom - bringing us back to the original proposal,
> >sort of... ;-)
> >
> >Dennis King
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Date:    Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:54:33 -0500
> >From:    "maher, johnpeter" <[log in to unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: Martignacco
> >
> >A Chairde
> >
> >I thought I submitted a complementary post, but don't remember seeing it
> >on the net.
> >
> >Gallia Cisalpina was Romanized at the end of the 1st century BC.
> >
> >I proposed that the town has its name from Sanctus Martinus, born in
> >Pannonia, bishop of Tours, late Empire...
> >
> >Just where is the town? What dialect is involved? There must be
> >documents, charters to consult before positing some Italo-Celtic link.
> >
> >The <gn> digraph is etymolocical only in such as <agnello> 'lamb' <
> ><AGNVS>, not in <signore> < Latin <SENIOR>.
> >
> >j p maher
> >
> >....
> >Dennis King wrote:
> >
> > > Ar 12:15 PM +0200 6/8/99, scríobh Christian Chiarcos:
> > >
> > > >If it was really Gallo-Roman, there would hardly be <gn> = [ñ].
> > >
> > > Not at the Gallo-Roman stage, of course.  The "gn" is simply a
> > > spelling convention that came later to represent the ñ or ny sound:
> > >
> > > Martinus + iacum > Martiniacum > Martiniaco > Martignacco, Martignac
> > >
> > > The name might likely have meant "the Fundus* of Martinus".
> > >
> > > * farm, estate, bottom - bringing us back to the original proposal,
> > > sort of... ;-)
> > >
> > > Dennis King
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >End of OLD-IRISH-L Digest - 7 Jun 1999 to 8 Jun 1999 (#1999-106)
> >****************************************************************
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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