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OLD-IRISH-L  June 1999

OLD-IRISH-L June 1999

Subject:

Re: Mananna/n

From:

Pafra & Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:25:14 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

Thank you.  I knew that I had heard or had heard of Prof. Venneman and his
Atlantic theory, but I couldn't remember where or when.  I was there at the
Conference and have the Proceedings, which, by the way, are still for sale.
If there is interest, I would be happy to post full ordering information.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Selway <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Mananna/n


A chara\idean,

Bho'n paipear a d'thug  an t-Ollamh Venneman aig an/From the paper
delivered by Prof Venneman at the:

XIXth International Congress of Onomastic Sciences, Aberdeen, August 4-11,
1996

is mar air a fhoillsichte ann an/as published in:

the Proceedings of the Congress (Volume 2) s.n.:

"Pre-Indo-European toponyms in central and western Europe: BID-/BED- and
PIT- "names

"Objective

"In this much abbreviated version of my contribution to the XIXth
International "Congress of Onomastic Sciences I would like to present
etymologies for two "groups of toponyms, the Bid-/Bed. names which are
widespread in Europe and the "Pit- names which are essentially limited to
the north of Scotland.  They are "offered in support of my theory of the
linguistic pre-history of Europe (1).  "According to this theory Europe
north of the Alps was, after the last ice-age, "first taken possession of
by herdsmen speaking Vasconic languages, i.e. "languages related to Basque.
Later the Atlantic seaboard from the Iberian "peninsula to Scandinavia was
colonised by seafarers speaking Atlantic "languages, i.e. languages related
to Hamito-Semitic, indeed most closely to "Semitic itself.  Finally, most
of Europe was taken over by peoples speaking "Indo-European languages,
Pre-languages, i.e. languages superseded by new "languages brought into a
territory, survive longest in typical retreat areas.  "This also holds for
the two pre Indo-European language families: the last "Vasconic language,
Basque, is still spoken in the Pyrenees, and the last "Atlantic language,
Pictish, survived until about the 10th century in northern "Scotland. (2)"

...

"(1)  The theory is developed in the following articles: 'Zur Erklaerung
"bayerischer Gewaesser- und Siedlungsnamen', _Sprachenwissenschaft_ 18
(1993) "425-483, 'Die mitteleuropaeischen Orts- und Matronennamen mit _f,
b. h_ und die "Spaetphase der Indogermania', in George E. Dunkel et als
(eds), _Frueh-, "Mittel-, Spaetindogermanisch_ (Wiesbaden: Dr Ludwig
Reichert, 1994) 403-25, ""Linguiatic reconstruction in the context of
European prehistory", "_Transactions of the Philological Society_ 92 (1994)
213-82; Etymologische "Beziehungen im Alten Europa', _Der Ginkgo Baum:
germanistisches Jahrbuch fuer "Nordeuropa_ 13 (1995) 39-115.

"(2)  For Pictish see my article: '_Atlantiker in Nordwesteuropa: Pikten
und "Vanen_' in Stig Eliasson and Ernst Hakon Jahr (eds), Studies for Einar
Haugen "(Berlin, Mouton de Gruyter, 1996)"

'S anns a' Bheurla am pa\ipear sin (is aig uachdar an cruaich air an bo\rd
sgriobhaigh agam an drasd' <g>, is mar sin furasda ri thoir adhart/The
article is in English (and on the top of the pile on my desk), so I can
pass the extract on without difficulty. (:- )

Leis durrachdan iomlan a\

Gorda\n
<[log in to unmask]>


At 6:50 pm 26/6/1999, Pafra & Scott Catledge wrote:

>Out of curiosity, does Vennemann consider the Picts to be Atlantian?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Dennis King <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 12:55 PM
>Subject: Re: Manann/an

>Ar 6:32 PM -0400 6/25/99, scríobh Francine Nicholson:

>>        Second, does Mananna/n's name come from the island (called Mona
>>by the Romans--same as Anglesey--and Eubonia by Nennius) or vice versa?

>MacKillop, in his Dictionary of Celtic Mythology, also lists Old
>English "Maenig" and Old Norse "Maun", as well as "Manavia" given
>in Ptolemy's "Geography" (2nd cent. A.D.).  The Old Irish is "Mana".

>A web-based version of Nennius's "Tracts on the History of the
>Gaedil at http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/nennius.htm shows this
>instance of Manavia, not as Man but as a city elsewhere:

>"Builc had the island Eubonia, and other adjacent
>places.  The sons of Liethali obtained the country of the
>Dimetae, where is a city called Manavia and the province
>of Giheir and Cequell, which they held till they were
>expelled from every part of Britain by Ceunedda and his
>sons."

>(By the way, could there be a link between Eubonia and Emain,
>as in Emain Ablach, given as a home of Manannán?  The bilabial
>/b/ would have had a lenited pronunciation /v/, which was then
>reinterpreted as the nasalized bilabial /v~/ shown by the "m"
>in Emain.  The ending -ia would have dropped off in the usual
>way, leaving the final "n" with the slender pronunciaton shown
>by "-in".)

>Anyway, the toponym Mona/Mana/Manau seems to have been around
>for quite some time.  The Romans apparently applied it not
>just to Man and Anglesey, but also for another island thought
>to be Arran, off the coast of Scotland next to Kintyre.  Was
>is Brythonic in origin, pre-Celtic, even Atlantian (Vennemann's
>term for a West Semitic substrate)?

>Dennis King

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