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CELTIC-L  December 1998

CELTIC-L December 1998

Subject:

Re: English culture?

From:

"Mag.phil. Raimund Karl" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Mag.phil. Raimund Karl

Date:

Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:52:18 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (207 lines)

mike brown wrote:
>
> [Ray wrote:]
> >Personal insults are not part of the "culture" on this list.
>
> I never said that they were. Watch my 'lips'. I said "culture of humour and
> dry wit/satire". There's a *big* difference boyo. I have also gone out of my
> way on numerous occasions to inform that what I've written is not meant to
> offend.

Well, Mike, I frankly don't care. All I did was ask you politely to
stop, so please do. If you want it formulated as an order, you may well
get that. This is my list, and if you can't take the fact that I decide
what is appropriate and what not, you better start your own list. It's
easy to do, and there it's your decision what is ok and what not, but
not here. All you get yourself by making a big show out of my simple
recommendation to stay a little more polite is making me angry, which
won't help you anything. As I said, I'm fed up with having to explain
that I am not working as a thought police here, but trying to keep this
list running in a way palatable to the mayority of it's members. That's
all I do. So please stick to the rules, that's all I have said and am
still asking of you. It's an easy job to do, just say ok, I'll try.
There's nothing more I want of you.
>
> >If you need
<snipped my own stuff>
> >welcome.
>
> Now I could take that as a 'personal insult' couldn't it? If I were to
> personally insult you I would say something like: Yes, O 'Guru of all things
> Celtic and humourless', but I wouldn't dare.
>
Well, if you want you can, even though it was not intended and I can't
see the personal insult. But if you explain where you see it, I will
immediatly apologize. And actually, as you obviously do not dare to say
something like the above, because else you would write it, why should I
respond to it?

> >If you have read so far, I can bore you a little bit longer. This
<snipped my own stuff>
> >things from history which nothing can change any more.
>
> And maybe the passion and fire you read on this list is there because
> they're exchanges between 'real' Celtic people. If you took your nose out of
> your books for long enough maybe you'd notice.
>
Oh, I'm absolutely sorry that I am not a "real" Celtic person. As a
sidenote, I have no idea how you are able to decide that and why I am
not, and how you can know how long I did not take my nose out of my
books, but I suppose you have pretty good reasons for that - perhaps I
sould see if I'm not on a show like the Truman one. Anyways, I can only
recommend you to read some of the books I have read, there are a lot of
interesting things to be found in them. Especially about Celtic Culture,
which you are obviously very much interested in. Else I could not
present a few pages about elements of ancient Celtic Culture to the list
once in a while, which I have not seen you to do by now. How about it?
Can't you do something similar? Maybe about modern Welsh culture? Might
be even more interesting than English bashing!

> >If you were so
<snipped my own stuff again>
> >indigenous aboriginal cultural expression)?
>
> Do you really suggest that I'm not interested in saving Welsh culture and
> language???

No, I don't. I only suggest you're not that much interested that you
work for it in a way that might restrict your possibilities - it was
your choice to move to Australia because your chances are better there,
instead of staying in Wales and trying everything in your possibilities
to help Welsh culture survive there. It's alsways such personal choices
that let a culture die out, such choices where the people part of it or
claiming to be part of it actually move of because this is better for
their own personal economic success.

> Your comment insults every person who lives outside of their Celtic country,
> but who is interested in doing something for it. For example, is the Welsh
> academic teaching Celtic Studies at an American university doing something
> wrong in your books? What about the Celtic person living overseas who is
> studying something (such as Law for example) that can be used back 'home' in
> their Celtic country.

No, not at all. I think it is very good that Celtic Studies are thaught
at foreign universities, which is the main reason why I actually have
been working to create a Celtic Studies department here at Vienna
University for the last five years, and now the possibility to do Celtic
Studies here exists. Can you say the same of you? And what is it you are
studying overseas? English Law? Can't you do that in Wales, where you
could activly participate in living Welsh culture, and promote it by
using Welsh as your language at the University there? By organising
Welsh activities there? By doing something instead of claiming some
later use back home? You could do something right now, but you don't,
because it is much easier for you to just complain instead of really
doing something.
>
> >All you complain about is
<snipped>
> >>to the Welsh.
>
> As a Welsh person, *I* determine where and when it's best to work in Wales'
> interests, and not you or antone else.

Well, you are welcome to. Did I somehow interfere with that? I don't
know why and where. All I did was presenting my opinion, which is my
right as a human being, and daring to critizise what I think to be your
rather egoistic motivations while putting down others for doing the
same. You are welcome to go wherever you like and to try to help in a
way whichever you think to be the right one, but you seemingly preferred
to choose the easy path. At least, that's how it looks to me.

> BTW did you read what I said to
> Jacquelyn about analysing the past for the sake of the future?

Well, I completely agree with this statement, but what has it to do with
the tons of emails you have sent? You are welcome to present to us a
complete summary of the Welsh history, including the interactions with
England, so that we can learn something about Welsh history and how the
situation that now exists in Wales came to be. But only a very few of
your mails even contained something which might be interpreted in that
way, even less presented a concise summary. Analysing the past for the
sake of the future doesn't work by taking some isolated elements of the
past and claiming that somebody was doing wrong things in those
instances. You first have to analyse the cirumstances in which this
happened, the mentality underwhich this happened and the process how
this worked, and set that into a general frame from which clues can be
taken. This is, how you have any chance of leraning something from the
past, only picking up some selected injustices and using it to either
condemn somebody or blame a situation on somebody else, or stake some
claims from it is historicistic argumentation and brings nothing but new
wrongs. If you need to, read Karl Popper on it.
>
> >Do you have any ideas about how Welsh culture can be saved other than
<snipped>
> >farmers or anything else you like) were even worse off" babble.
>
> Your use of the word "preserved" here doesn't really fit in with "living,
> growing and changing Wales". But never mind. Again, intead for resorting to
> the dismissive "They did this to us..." allegation/critisism, you will find
> I have written on this very subject by stating that to survive, Wales needs
> self-determination through a Parliament. To have a Parliament, as opposed to
> a lesser Assembly, will ensure we can pass legislation on housing and
> immigration etc. Or hadn't you got around to reading that yet?
>
And you needed over a hundred mails for this? Is that so hard to say?
And additionally, what do you think such a Parliament can change? The
Irish have their own Parliament for almost 80 years, but still English
is their primary language, and still modern Irish culture has more
similarities to English than to Gaelic culture. And what do you think
would it change to pass new housing and immigration laws? Would that put
out the over 70% of English speaking inhabitants of Wales of today?
Would that change anything of the economic pressure to use English in
the area Wales is set geographically, because everybody around is using
English as a primary language and most of your (then) foreign trade will
be with English or at least primarily English as a business language
speaking companies? And more, would your brave new Wales be part of the
EEC? If yes, why do you think such restrictive immigration laws could be
passed at all, with the common European laws that allow free choice of
settling where one wants to every European citizen? Or would you keep
Wales outside of a joining Europe, to be starved economically at the
fringe of the EEC? Little separatist view are maybe pretty when not
tested, but do you really think that in a globalized society as, if not
already existent, it soon will be, such problems can be solved by
drawing an iron curtain around your playing-ground? The world maybe
isn't like you want it to, and even though I would love Wales getting
it's independence back I don't think this would change much, if anything
at all. And this mainly because it would need incredible political
pressure to make Wales "Welsh" again, and this alone in the matter of
language. Much more pressure than is realistic in a country where over
70% of the population are speaking English today, 70% of the population
which will not accept that they are suddenly forced to use Welsh in
their daily affairs.

> Please research the things I've written before you critise me again.

I've done so, more than enough.
>
> Ps. it's 'Hywel Dda', not Howel the Good.

Well, and we are mainly talking English on this list, so the translation
for those not able to speak or read Welsh is Howel the Good. For the
same reasons I talk about the Laws of Howel the Good, and not the
Cynfraith Hywel, and about the Irish Law of Status and not about Críth
Gablach, Uraicecht Becc and Míadslechta. Andererseits könnte ich ja auch
in Deutsch schreiben, weil das meine Muttersprache ist und ich mich
darin wesentlich besser und auch rascher ausdrücken kann, but most
listmembers would not understand a word I say, and this would make my
efforts worthless.

RAY

________________________________________________________________________

RAY - Mag.phil. Raimund KARL
Universität Wien, Institut für Ur- und Frühgeschichte
A-1190 Wien, Franz Klein Gasse 1
E-Mail: <[log in to unmask]>
Internet: <http://unet.univie.ac.at/˜a8700035>
________________________________________________________________________

Visit the Celtic-L Resources Page at
<http://unet.univie.ac.at/˜a8700035/celtrese.html>
________________________________________________________________________

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