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CELTIC-L  June 1998

CELTIC-L June 1998

Subject:

Re: 600 + Similar Akkadian and Irish Words

From:

Raimund Karl <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Raimund Karl <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:11:37 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (178 lines)

> Date:          Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:58:48 EDT
> From:          "David F. O'Keefe" <[log in to unmask]>

Hello David,

before I head off to a 4day holiday in Kopenhagen, I have to take the
messages you sent a little bit apart.

> We are not British or Irish Israelites.

Well, maybe not, but your theory sounds like much one hears of them.

> The gist of our paper is
> that there is a linguistic relationship between the Celtic and
> Akkadian/Semitic language families that is over 7,000 years old.

Which is most interesting, but, at least if we give any credit to
the results of Celtic Studies departments all over the world,
strictly impossible, as there are no Celts before, I'll be friendly,
1200 BC (which is, if I count correctly, just a mere 3200 years ago).

> In your message you commented on our not using the rigorous methods
<snipped>
> the methods you are referring to.

Or maybe the fact that there are almost no connections. Actually,
were it as easy as you pretend, the brilliant linguists would have
nothing to do anymore.

>          In deciding to undertake this comparison of Irish and Akkadian, two
<snip>
> to use the shootgun's deadly spray of pellets, rather than the rifle's bullet.

An analogy, of course, which is as pretty as it is useless here. I'll
try to explain why in the following.

> An ancient word, one individual ancient word that is,  is a very small target,
> so to speak.   Thus, in looking at the possible relationship between Celtic
> and Semitic, we believe that it is better to try to see if 550 Celtic Irish
> words resemble a sample of  600 Semitic Akkadian words, and to see
> what common linguistic patterns emerge, rather than to pick out a few
> roots perfectly.

Which, however, is as false as anything could be. You are comparing
apples and oranges, so to say. Why, do you think, do the linguists
care for roots? because this is the only chance to fiind out if words
are related! As I said, I can take a sample of 500 Japanese words and
find rules how they are to be transformes into Viennese! And we had
this example only a few months ago, when we were discussing the same
problem here on Celtic-L. The point is that what you have are totally
unrelated similarities.

>           Our second analogy involves the more precise digital wave
<snipped>
> assured, we will do our best to contribute to such an effort.

The problem is, that you are ignoring a time difference of almost
7000 years, ignoriing all results of modern linguistic and returning
to a method which was used by the early chritian monks to explain
words. This is what I call nonsense, which led to explanations as
that Temair is derived from Tea muir, that is the wall of Tea,
daughter of ... and similar nonsense as you can read in 5 volumes of
metrical dindshenchas if you want to.
The point is that modern linguistics has shown frequently that such
attempts are useless.

Now, on your other mail:

> Date:          Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:52:57 EDT
> From:          "David F. O'Keefe" <[log in to unmask]>

> The Akkadians were not a few thousand miles away from Galatia,
> probably less than  250 or 325 miles at most.  Colin McEvedy's THE
> PENGUIN ATLAS OF ANCIENT HISTORY, pps. 22-3, has an excellent map of

a very reliaby source this is, telling us really much about detials
how this contact should have happened.

<snip>
> area were the Amorites, in 1,850 B.C. and 1,600 B.C. (pages 28-31)
> So, its is clearly established that for 1,100 years the Akkadians
> and their Amorite successors were not  very far from Galatia.

Which leaves us with a mere 300 or so miles in distance and a mere
1300 years or so in time. Real good hints for a strong vice-versa
influence and contact.

Please, David, be a little bit more careful with what you do, as what
you have presented till now shows nothing but a horrible ignorance of historical
data. If you want to get any other result than being laughed at,
start with doing the most basic homework instead of publishing
theories which are so farfetched and that much ignoring any serious
method that I can hardly keep myself from running away screaming.

> Again, the Celtic-Akkadian linguistic relationship which we are
> suggesting has much to do with some of the peoples, who apparently
> once lived in the Black Sea basin before it was (re-)flooded circa
> 5,000 B.C. by the Mediterranean Sea, sharing common linguistic
> roots.

Really funny. With this, we now are about 2000 years before the
assumed formation of the Indoeuropean language family. As such, the
same result you had with Irish should be possible to accieve with any
other IE language, say, Indian, for example. Perhaps you should use
the next few months for researching a similar connection which you
postulate for Irish for Indian as well. And, as an advice, try some
other IE languages, too. If you find similar connection in all IE
languages, your theory at least has some basis which might allow
to discuss it a little bit more seriously. However, the best would be
to now look at the roots of those words you have found out and see
how they looked in common Celtic, a mere 2000 years ago? And see if
the simiilarity still is there? I doubt that this is so. Another
possibility would be to look at the Welsh cognates of the Irish
words you selected and look how these fit into your scheme.

Finally, the third of your messages:

> Date:          Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:39:56 EDT
> From:          "David F. O'Keefe" <[log in to unmask]>

> Yes.  I believe that the Celts have been in the Anatolian plain
> since the great Black Sea basin was refilled by the Mediterranean
> some 7,000 years ago.

This s absolutely the best part of all. Do you have any evidence for
this? I answer this immediatly, of course no, as such evidence
simply doesn't exist.

> They were not numerically large enough to be
> major players, as the Hittites and Hurians were.  But apparently
> they had good maritime connections.

Ah, yes? Do you have any idea where the Anatolian plain is, that part
which was the one in which the Galatoi settled? It is surrounded by
mountains on all sides, and there's no sea anywhere close!
And which sources do you have for this postulate?

> Ceasar recorded that there were
> 2,000 Celtic pirates.

50BC, and in Gaul, if at all. Perhaps you could quote the precise
location where Caesar claims this?

> These Celtic seamen had to go to and from
> Celtic ports in Spain, France, Dacia (Romania), and Anatolia, for
> example.  These ports would not have to be big by our modern
> standards.

Where are these ports mentioned, especially those in the east?
Please? Has any of those been found? No! Is any of those in an area
that actually was settled by Galatoi? NO!

> And when the Galatians came to Anatolia 300 B.C., they
> must have had some Celtic allies there instead of or in addition to
> just pushing aside a smaller Greek kingdom.

And why is this just not noted anywhere? Why did not a single one of
the Greek or Roman historians menton them? Why do we have not the
slightest archaeological evidence for their existance?

The point is, David, that your theories are based on spurious evidence
and assumptions, which cannot be backed with any facts. You maybe
would like those things to be true, but there's not a single hint to
their factualness. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's all fiction.
If you want to be taken seriously, find some facts before you make
big claims.

RAY
__________________________________________________________

RAY (Raimund Karl,University of Vienna,Dep.of Prehistory)
email: [log in to unmask] (or [log in to unmask])
homepage: http://unet.univie.ac.at/~a8700035/index.html
__________________________________________________________

                 The CELTIC-L Resources:
      http://unet.univie.ac.at/~a8700035/celtrese.html
__________________________________________________________

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