why not to the list? But don't worry I'll CC it.
In message <[log in to unmask]>, Nemo Semret writes:
> > I challenged you to show me a site that was actually helpful to a
> > medical professional or a nurse. This has not been forthcoming.
> I just got very busy...
> But let's settle this with the following: you post some symptoms
> here, as a patient would describe to a nurse. I, with my
> non-existent medical training, will come back with a web-based
And you will tell us how long it took you to find it.
> If I fail,then for one week after, I will replace my homepage with the
> following four words: "The web is useless".
> If I succeed, you will have to dig up this messages again using your
> wonderful glimpse search engine, and write a long self-criticism (in
> HTML, no less, illustrated with plenty of JPEGs and nice fonts).
> Do we have a deal?
If you manage (and in less then one hour on line time), then for one
week after, I will replace my homepage with the following five words:
"The web is not useless".
> We'll need to define what is a reasonable enough symptom, something that
> a poor old bush nurse would not know, but that a normal general
> practioner would, and also what constitutes a good enough diagnosis.
You are mixing up symptom with diagnosis by the way.
> > > Well, if she had the funds, telephone, electricity, a computer, modem,
> > > computer literacy, English, and the time she might actually try this
> > > once. However, my village nurses read their treatment manual and if
> > > that doesn't cover it to their satisfaction they phone me.
> > >
> Oh so she has no electricity but she has a phone? Hmm...
Now I could make some sharp comments about the quality of instruction
in electrical engineering you must have received, but you know
perfectly well how telephones receive their power, over the wire.
> Forget that, let's look the artithmetic here:
> Average cost of getting a PC with modem: $1000+tax+duty
> Average cost of getting an MD: $100,000+transportation
> The nurse has to be there in both cases.
> So, if having the PC allows the nurse to reduce the number of times he
> has to consult the doctor by say 20%, then that PC has paid back its
> cost 20 times over.
> That's webonomics 101 for you, doctor.
If anything, it's vodoo econmics.
> Before you ask "where am I going to get 0.8 doctors", I am talking
> averages over large samples.
I am really getting annoyed by the arrogance you display (repeatedly)
when talking about things you don't understand anything about.
Salary of a Professor of Medicine in Nigeria is less then $3000 per
year and he doesn't get transportation. Kenya pays a little bit more I
hear, and places like the DRCongo much much less if anything at all. I
can try and dig it up for Ethiopia.
Before you ask, a Senior Medical Officer in Namibia gets a maximum of
$NA35000 (but has to work serious overtime for that) and some
transportation is provided.
Salaries are however in local money (which the government of the day
can print itself), whereas hardware and software requires foreign
exchange. Which is one reason why there are so few computers. Which
you of course, again, know full well.
But nevermind the salaries, you simply can not deduct as arbitrarily
as you do, because you have to provide coverage.
There are WHO recommended ratios of Medical Officers per population,
but you need at least three in a district even if it is a small one
warranting only one under the ratio.
You have to be able to do operations such as Cesarean Sections and
Apendicectomies around the clock, 7 days a week, which need
anaesthetics and assistance (at least two individuals (surgeon and
anaesthetist), legally speaking at least 3 (one assistant), for a
Cesarean in fact 4 one for the baby). Even if you sat around during
the day and twiddled thumbs, it's just not possible to provide cover
safely with only two people over anything more then a week or so.
> > PS: Maybe you really should go home for three months and see how it
> > looks over there.
> I have actually. In the summer of 95, I worked at PADIS on the fidonet
> node there. It would have looked a lot better if people had web access.
> Now why don't you come here and see what it could/should look like! Face
> it, your pioneering days are over.
PADIS is an operation of the UN Economic Commission for Africa in
Addis Abbeba (the capital). Must have been a rough time.
> It offends me when people have the attitude that "this is Africa,
> things are not supposed to be as good as in the North". I would say
> that attitude is more destructive in the long term than the fact
> that some USAID officials are staying at the Hilton or whatever.
I share your resentment 100%. But I have never ever said or even
implied anything like this. I have been saying the exact opposite
since at least 5 years again and again.
Please refer to the archives and look up the great landfill debate, or
"don't bite the hand that feeds you". May have been on Develop-L, but
Jeff Cochran was involved. Or even the "used suture" debate on GASNet
(the anesthesia list).
I have been raving about the virtues of inexpensive Unix for
inexpensive hardware (linux on PCs) for years with emphasis on state
of the art.
Oh yes, the Hilton debate, I am personally fairly sick and tired
reading Jeff Cochrane's silly, self-indulgent, culinary exploits of
Bamako and other fancy places with air conditioning (Italian food of
all places, probably too afraid to take local food), I'd prefer much
more if he loaded that web site we have been talking about
http://www.idn.org and timed it telling me how long it took.
Come to think of it the only networking feature mentioned is usually