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CELTIC-L  April 1998

CELTIC-L April 1998

Subject:

Re: CELTIC-L Digest - 27 Apr 1998 to 28 Apr 1998

From:

McHamish <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:21:24 EDT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (79 lines)

In a message dated 98-04-28 19:04:59 EDT, you write:

> > Can anyone tell me what archaeological or other evidence there might be
>  > that Picts ever settled in Ireland?
>
>  Complicated question. When the Gaels settled in Ireland there were
>  two other identifiable people, the Erin (?pre-Celtic natives) and the
>  Cruithni (pronounced "croonie, = Pretani = Britani = Britons). The
>  Erin and Cruithne were finally conquered by the Ui Neill around the
>  7/8th century. Several generations after this, Irish chroniclers
>  started referring to the people of northern Britain as "Cruithne"
>  which has confused a lot of people into thinking the Picts were of
>  the same stock of, or descended from, the Irish Cruithni. However,
>  all Irish record contemporay with the Cruithni always call the Picts
>  "Picti" - quite distinct. The confusion probably arose because in
>  Irish myth the founder of the Pictish nation was named "Cruithne",
>  and the Scotti, who moved to Scotland, were also considered
>  "Cruithni" by the Irish Gaels. So in short, no the Picts did not
>  settle in Ireland!

i'm struggling with paul's statement here because it doesn't square with my
own understanding of the origins of the picts.  as i've mentioned once before,
i follow the theory that the picts were not celtic in the sense that they
migrated into scotland from the continent along with other tribes of known
celtic origins, but, rather, they were a pre-celtic race, perhaps descended
from the bell beaker people and bronze age inhabitants of the region.  on the
other hand, they were celtic in the sense that they were tribal and had
acquired iron age technology, perhaps from close association and trade with
continental celts.

in that sense, the term cruithni applies to the picts as well as to the
cruthintuath of ireland, and indeed all the pre-celtic inhabitants of the
pretanic isles, as they were all descended from an earlier race of common or
similar origins.

following is a passage from lloyd and jennifer laing's  -celtic britain and
ireland, the myth of the dark ages- which seems to say that the picts of
scotland and the cruithni of ireland were the same people [unless i'm
misinterpreting it]

[quoting]
'there is literary evidence for pictish connections with ireland and indeed
some for 'irish' picts.  the irish before the eighth century were of the view
that the cruithin [the word is the same as the cruithni of pictland] were of
the same origin as the picts.  bede narrated how picts came from scythia and
sought refuge in ireland, but were refused a landing and went instead to
scotland.  macneill pointed out [1933, 20] that references to the irish
cruithin ceased to be made after 773, at a time when the scots of dalriada
were at war with the picts, who were thus now regarded as inferior peoples.
the homeland of the historical cruithin was eastern ulster, and seven,
possibly nine, small kingdoms are recorded for them as late as 563 [macneill,
1933, 10].  the annals of ulster refer to them intermittently from this date
until the late eighth century, when they disappear from the records.  it is
clear therefore that there were non-native peoples in eastern ulster in the
early christian period who were regarded by the irish as picts.

'a further group of picts are recorded in medieval irish tradition which
maintained that the -loigis- of leix in leinster were cruithin or picts.  they
were believed to be divided into seven tribes or segments, like the picts of
scotland.  this view is endorsed by modern scholarship [smyth, 1982, 76]'
[ppg 170-171]
[end of quotation]

maybe ray will chime in on this now that he has a loptop to accompany him on
his tour of military duty.

max dashu wrote-

-- Interesting. I had no idea historical records existed of the Cruithne this
late. Do you know which contemporary sources talk about this?  --

maybe -the annals of ulster-.is the answer to this.


and perhaps the -annals of ulster- is the reference max dashu is looking for
in a later post.

mchamish, whose shift key is still not working

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